Not always so simple?

[andy]

Not sure which forum to use.

I appreciate the well meaning behind all of these "spend less than you earn and get out of debt" sites, but so far I have not found one that does not grossly over simplifiy this issue.

We live in a society, culture and infrastructure that places expectations of financial conduct and behaviour that go way beyond the simple and relatively easy to overcome case of "don't use your credit card to go and buy yourself expensive personal goodies you don't really need". Ultra strict budgeting could be to drive a coach and horses through many long standing realtionships and commitments and also often asumes any way that we have complete autonomy over the money we use and are the only ones to gain or loose.

I have seen NO-ONE address more complex issues at all. ONLY the issue of obvious temptation to spend on personal goodies, which though in need of addressing, to be fair requires very little in the way of deeper wisdom.

On top of this one may on occasion be inspired to give into other's hardship beyond one's own personally planned out means and one does not necessarily see, nor should one expect an immediate monetary benefit to this, thus leaving you in hardship or possibly debt.

I have often thought that one should address the spiritual roots that lead, amongst many other things, to one using one's money wrongly, rather than preach a dogma of budgetting and financial management rules as many sites seem to.

One could easily spend only 50% of one's income and be a very unwise spender. Others who are overstretched can some-times feel under presure and guilt, though trying hard to spend wisely without being obstinate and pig-headed.

Any thoughts or links to wise and undogmatic articles greatly appreciated.

[matt]

We live in a society, culture and infrastructure that places expectations of financial conduct and behaviour that go way beyond the simple and relatively easy to overcome case of "don't use your credit card to go and buy yourself expensive personal goodies you don't really need".

Are you talking about keeping up with the jones's or something? What do you mean by expectations of financial conduct and behavior?

Ultra strict budgeting could be to drive a coach and horses through many long standing realtionships and commitments and also often asumes any way that we have complete autonomy over the money we use and are the only ones to gain or loose.

Other than taxes, we do have complete autonomy over the money that has been given to us by God to use. We're not always the only ones to gain or lose by our use of said money but we're responsible for the results of our actions in doing so.

I'm not totally sure what you're trying to say here. Could you give some sort of example of a situation you're talking about?

Also, I doubt there will be many articles about what you're talking about because personal finance is, at it's heart, personal. Every person's situation is different and may require different actions and advice. These things need to be dealt with on a case by case basis so you're not going to find some wise article with wisdom that is generic to any situation. The general rule of spend less than you earn is a universal one because it is so simple.

[4jacks]

Andy,

you are definitely chatting a little bit over my head, or above my paygrade. But I think I understand how you feel. I have turned around completely in the past two years. A complete 180 degree. I use to live off my credit cards, and I thought it was just the normal american way to do things. I thought people who owned stuff without payments were "rich". I thought everyone "normal" lived like I did, in debt up to my eyeballs.

It's hard to say exactly how I changed or turned around my thinking. Definitely started when I started listing to crown podcasts and learning about what the bible says about money. For me "spend less than you make" equated to "DON'T USE THE CREDIT CARDS" becuase for my wife and I, the credit cards were the way we spent more than we made. I didn't really see that for what it was at first, but we made a decision to stop using the credit cards, it was tough, very very tough

I think a lot of places, like these types of forums, and the radio programs, don't talk enough about how hard it is to go from spending more than you make to spending less than you make. It's a very difficult transition. Unless you are blessed with a large enough pay increase or something.

[KrozFan]

One could easily spend only 50% of one's income and be a very unwise spender.

Sadly this is very true, and I agree that there aren't enough articles out there about being a wise consumer. I think it's important that as consumers we do at least a little bit of research on things that we buy, and don't just go out and buy the cheapest thing. I have a subscription to consumer reports and use it all the time to check out stuff. That combined with reviews on retailers sites, like amazon.com, and I have a good idea if I'm buying a quality item or a piece of junk. It really doesn't take too long to research stuff either. A lot of times for items if you pay a bit more up front you'll save money over the long run because you don't have to replace the item every few years.

I have seen NO-ONE address more complex issues at all. ONLY the issue of obvious temptation to spend on personal goodies, which though in need of addressing, to be fair requires very little in the way of deeper wisdom.

What more complex issues would you like to see addressed. Throw some posts out here and we'll talk about it. The boards seem to be a bit slow lately so it would be fun to have something new to talk about.

[andy]

Ok here goes with some examples. I'm not going be completely personal though as that wouldn't be appropriate, but these are very likely scenarios.

a) You can't afford to carry on running your car, but all the jobs that pay as much as you've always had before and need are at a distance there is no possible way you could get to without a car. Do you ditch the career you worked hard for, ditch your car and try and find any old job, or do you muddle through running the car in debt in the hope of keeping your career?
b) You don't have enough money for school uniform, and its not compulsory but your child would be the only one in the school without it, do you borrow to buy it or let them go without.
c) The school requests attendance on numerous school trips, or request materials for activities that have a cost you can't afford, every other child is going or doing. All your children's friends are conributing a silly amount towards another child's birthday and the other oarents condone it. Do you make your child tand out from their whole class by not giving?
d) Your family arrange a birthday celebration for a family member which involves a meal out (couples) a contribution to a gift, fuel to travel, may be clothes and hair do. Are you the only one not to go or do you just spend the money any way?
e) Your cards and account are shared and you or your partner or you buys something in error that can't be returned. Should partners have their own accounts for ther own money so they have complete autonomy or shouldn't one be flexible, share the account and be tollerant of mistakes and misunderstandings for the sake of the relationship?
f) The only house you can afford is on two sallary's, you have another child and your partner wants to give up work. Do you bow beat your partner to saty in work? Do you sell up and move to rough area and move your children away from their friends etc for the sake of sticking to the budget or do you muddle through best you can, hoping things will improve?
g) Your child has some medical needs at a hospital at a distance and you need to buy a train ticket and stay over night in accomodation, you can't save up and the appointments are not that frequent. Do you go any way or leave it and risk your childs future.
h) Your children think there's a Santa. Do you tell them straight and say we have no spare money, so no presents this year, but at least youve hot water and heating cos we fixed the boiler, or do you cut back, but still get something through borrowing?
i) Like h) only birthdays. Jonny got something for his birthday 3 months ago, but that was when we had money!!
j) Your son is at college and needs fares, food, books etc, but the benefits system has a hole that means although you are technically on the bread line he still can't get help cos' the benefit is based on what you earned in the PREVIOUS tax year.
k) Your child has a mediacl issues that seriously affect learning and behaviour. The ONLY thing he excels at is drums and he's up to grade 5. Do you cancel their drum lessons with the teacher he's built up a rapport with over a number of years or do you muddle through and pay any way?
l) All your partner's friends got expensive celebrations from their spouces, now its your turn!!

etc, etc etc, etc, etc

May be I am misunderstanding the meaning behind many sites I read but they appear to be quite dogmaitc that if the money's not there then you shouldn't do it and that's that. I just think they could be a bit more understanding of the compilcated world in which we live and acknowledge that a completely no compromise view is not always the right one.

I'm not the best at putting things over, but hope this helps explain what I was getting at.

[KrozFan]

Cool, I see what you're getting at now. I don't think you're necessarily misunderstanding the meaning behind many sites, but you have to remember that most sites are a mix of personal experiences and looking for a general readership. If someone hasn't run into a problem they're probably not writing about it, and if someone has a story they think is too small in scope they may not write about it either so they can get a wide general readership. It's also hard with grey areas like you've posted about, it's not so easy to write a blog entry about "here's what I would do in this situation" if the answer is really "oh man, i have no idea what's the right thing here". It's hard to answer what's the right thing in many of the situations you posted.

Not sure if any of those situations you listed apply to you or someone you know, or if you just made them up. If they're real I can tell you that if you have a child at college and your financial situation has changed and is putting some financial hardship with the college you can always call them. Where I went to school someone in the financial aid office was assigned to all the students by last name, so I had a person handling my file so to speak. I swear my mom and that guy were on a first name basis. Call up and explain the situation, maybe even go down there if the college is close. Especially if your kid is a good student. Explain that financial things have changed and see if there's something they can do. A college may do more to keep a good student if not doing anything means they'll have to drop out.

Also, if the thing about one spouse quitting to stay home with the kids is true I can say that when you factor in not driving to work, not buying clothes for work, not paying for daycare, and spending more time taking care of things around the house like looking for deals/working the sales and cooking from scratch, you may not be losing the income you think.

If you have any specific situations feel free to post them here and get some feedback. I'm not saying we all have the right answers, but we do have differing opinions and that may at least get you to say "oh I hadn't thought of that"

[pochax]

May be I am misunderstanding the meaning behind many sites I read but they appear to be quite dogmaitc that if the money's not there then you shouldn't do it and that's that. I just think they could be a bit more understanding of the compilcated world in which we live and acknowledge that a completely no compromise view is not always the right one.

i think you get to the crux of the issue. i actually have to disagree with you that it is not always so simple. it IS simple. but it is not always EASY. we have so many needs and wants that money can fulfill (and many that it can't but that is beyond the scope of this thread) but a limited amount of money. the equation is simple: spend less than you make. but you are absolutely right that life happens and that can throw the timing of those needs and wants (the line between which can be blurry to say the least) out of sync with our little "budgets" and "plans". one thing about this being a Christian forum, we are quick to concede that life brings many things out of our control but with the understanding that God is working them for the good of those who love Him (Rom 8:28). that sounds pithy and trite to a non-Christian, but to a Christian, that is what it's all about: be a good steward with what God has given you control over and trust God with the rest. i don't mean to come off as "dogmatic" as you say....dogma suggests a blind adherence to a philosophy or principle not based on reason or thorough research but pride and a desire to appear right and virtuous....since u don't know me, i'm sure i might come off as dogmatic. but i only believe what i believe because of what i have read in the Bible and have reconciled it with my reality. i acknowledge every situation you mentioned and would agree the right thing to do is not apparent, but that doesn't mean there isn't a right thing to do in God's eyes. As Christians we are called to search for that "right answer" with all that God has given us thru His revealed Word, prayer, the godly counsel of friends/family (dare i even say this forum at times?), and circumstances. Just my opinion

[4jacks]

a) You can't afford to carry on running your car, but all the jobs that pay as much as you've always had before and need are at a distance there is no possible way you could get to without a car. Do you ditch the career you worked hard for, ditch your car and try and find any old job, or do you muddle through running the car in debt in the hope of keeping your career?

Sell the car and buy a cheap older car that gets good gas mileage. Repairs are always cheaper than car payments. $100 a month in repairs would be considered a lot, and that is a lot cheaper than any car payment.

b) You don't have enough money for school uniform, and its not compulsory but your child would be the only one in the school without it, do you borrow to buy it or let them go without.

That is something that simply HAS to be in the budget, it's something that you KNOW is coming. Now if your child burns thier entire uniform in a freak chemistry accident than you take the money from your Emergency Fund.

c) The school requests attendance on numerous school trips, or request materials for activities that have a cost you can't afford, every other child is going or doing. All your children's friends are conributing a silly amount towards another child's birthday and the other oarents condone it. Do you make your child stand out from their whole class by not giving?

If you know it's coming, you include it in the budget, plan on x number per year. If you are first finding out, you can take the first hit off the emergency fund, and then work it into the budget.

d) Your family arrange a birthday celebration for a family member which involves a meal out (couples) a contribution to a gift, fuel to travel, may be clothes and hair do. Are you the only one not to go or do you just spend the money any way?

You have to have a "Gifts" catagory in the budget. And it has to include all the birthdays you normally buy gifts for and Christmas. Honestly, I do not attend those birthday parties, where we go to a restaraunt. I think they are inpersonal and dumb. So I'm always busy.

e) Your cards and account are shared and you or your partner or you buys something in error that can't be returned. Should partners have their own accounts for ther own money so they have complete autonomy or shouldn't one be flexible, share the account and be tollerant of mistakes and misunderstandings for the sake of the relationship?

We actually do have a thread on this. My wife and I each have a seperate account that we use. I get $55 a paycheck for my gas, my clothes, and my slush fund. She gets $74.

f) The only house you can afford is on two sallary's, you have another child and your partner wants to give up work. Do you bow beat your partner to saty in work? Do you sell up and move to rough area and move your children away from their friends etc for the sake of sticking to the budget or do you muddle through best you can, hoping things will improve?

You have to down size the house or rent until you can save up and pay enough on the house to afford it. It's VERY hard. I know, I just did it. I'm living in my brothers townhouse, it SUCKS. But you have to do what you have to do.

g) Your child has some medical needs at a hospital at a distance and you need to buy a train ticket and stay over night in accomodation, you can't save up and the appointments are not that frequent. Do you go any way or leave it and risk your childs future.

Why did you throw "You can't Save Up" into this scenerio? It is Very hard to switch from spending more than you make to spending less. But it really has to be done. It's very hard, I know, but if you don't do it, life is going to collapse. You have to be able to start saving.

Something like this would be an emergency fund. A health savings account is great. If paying for the hotel is rough, then you really have to plan ahead and shop around for the cheapest motel. Or even contact a local sister church and see if someone could put you up for the night.

h) Your children think there's a Santa. Do you tell them straight and say we have no spare money, so no presents this year, but at least youve hot water and heating cos we fixed the boiler, or do you cut back, but still get something through borrowing?

My mom always told us straight, and I'm very thankful for that.

i) Like h) only birthdays. Jonny got something for his birthday 3 months ago, but that was when we had money!!

The birthday isn't the issue, the issue is having money sometimes and not having it other times. It comes back to the budgeting. Unless you lose your job between billy and johnny's birthday, they should be able to get the same junk.

j) Your son is at college and needs fares, food, books etc, but the benefits system has a hole that means although you are technically on the bread line he still can't get help cos' the benefit is based on what you earned in the PREVIOUS tax year.

Community College

k) Your child has a mediacl issues that seriously affect learning and behaviour. The ONLY thing he excels at is drums and he's up to grade 5. Do you cancel their drum lessons with the teacher he's built up a rapport with over a number of years or do you muddle through and pay any way?

Has to go in the budget. Unless you lose a job or something, it's a budget issue.

l) All your partner's friends got expensive celebrations from their spouces, now its your turn!!

Honestly this is a communication issue, your spouse and you should know in advance how much you are going to spend on gifts. Once again it's in the budget.

May be I am misunderstanding the meaning behind many sites I read but they appear to be quite dogmaitc that if the money's not there then you shouldn't do it and that's that. I just think they could be a bit more understanding of the compilcated world in which we live and acknowledge that a completely no compromise view is not always the right one.

I'm not the best at putting things over, but hope this helps explain what I was getting at.

I know I probably sound like a jerk answering each scenerio, which are probably all hypothetical. But I really do know where you are coming from. I have been there. From the time I was 18 to the time I was 28. We lived pay check to pay check. And all these things that come up, like you listed, kicked our butts.

But I am very proud to say, we have completely turned around. But it was very hard. And we are still going through it. We had to sell our house and move in with my brother. Very stressful.

We pretty much followed the 7 step process that both Dave Ramsey and Crown Financial lay out.
1) Get on a budget, Make any adjustments you have to make so that your income is more than your expenses. This gives you margin to save up. Use that margin to save up $1000 for emergencies.
2) Start paying off all your credit cards with that margin.
3) Pay off your consumer debt
4) Save for a house

I don't even know the rest becuase I haven't really gotten even that far. lol. I'll look it up when I get there. But the budget and the emergency fund cover 90% of the issues that come up in life.

[andy]

I think you must be living not just on a different planet to me, but in a different universe.

Most of the time my wife and I barely have time for a conversation, let alone to sit down and set budgets for things.

I am a pretty organised person, every one I know thinks this, but I just don't have the time, or opportunity for enough uninterupted, thought to manage everything to the level of detail that you recommend.

Also I am not the right kind of personality to enforce on others the right level of imoveability and stubborn refusal to budge on my budget.

The trouble with all these sites is that all they seem to address is the maths and the rules. There is nothing that seems to help you change your personality and become more domineering or how to actually create a family or social or cultural environment in which to be able to achieve these things.

I'm not really sure what to do. But at the moment I don't think we're really in such a bad situation, but it looks like if I can't become like you, we may eventually be.

[garyatk]

No time to have a conversation with your wife, or keep a spending plan... How is your walk with the Lord going??? After all, your wife, kids, and your money belongs to Him. You are just the manager. Have you asked Him if He would like to see some changes made in you management style?

And if you are looking for a personality change... Well... God can do that too! Ask Him! But my hunch is that you will need to budget a little more time with Him too.

Blessings!

[4jacks]

Most of the time my wife and I barely have time for a conversation, let alone to sit down and set budgets for things.

Dude, if you seriously don't currently take time each week for just "You and the wife time" then you seriously need to sit down and reflect on life and what you really want out of life, and whether or not you are living life to the fullest or not.

No one sits on thier death bed and says "Man, I wish I had made more money." Money is only here to serve the relationships that we have.

Also I am not the right kind of personality to enforce on others the right level of imoveability and stubborn refusal to budge on my budget.

Apparently I am not that kind of person either, becuase I keep telling my wife she's got plenty of clothes in the closest and doesn't need to buy any more, but she still gets a decent clothes budget every week.

I would honestly say "immoveability" and "enforcing on others" would be two characteristics that would completely destroy the whole process of getting on a budget. Dave Ramsey says you have to lose a few battles to win the war, and really that is what it feels like sometimes. I Don't agree with my wife and a few items in the budget, But I either compromise with her, or I just downright let her have her way, because I don't want my life to be hell, and I am just happy we are on a budget!

All I can tell you is that this system works. It is working for me, I've paided off more debt than I ever could have imagined, I have lived on less than I earned for two years, which has been a drastic lifestyle change. It's tough, but it works.

You have to decide whether you are going to do it or not. Part of the battle is that if you do decide to do it, you have to get your wife on board. Ussually it's not hard you just have to sit down and tell her. "What we are doing isn't working." She will ussually agree it isn't working, cuase she's not blind, she knows you guys are going in the hole too. Then you have to suggest getting on a spending plan, and you have to work with her on it.

[pochax]

Most of the time my wife and I barely have time for a conversation, let alone to sit down and set budgets for things.

I suggest you try to be proactive and make an "appointment" - for example, 2 saturdays from now for 1 hour. if you have kids, maybe after they go to bed... but make it a priority. to save some time, why not start making a draft of a budget that would work in your eyes and then go through it with her instead of starting from scratch together. she can then explain what needs to be changed from her perspective or question items you put on it. it becomes a dialogue, and more importantly, you really start to learn what is important to eachother by how each person wants to spend the money.

Also I am not the right kind of personality to enforce on others the right level of imoveability and stubborn refusal to budge on my budget.

The point of making the budget is not to "exert your dominance"...the point is to open the lines of communication to explain why you think money should be spent on some things rather than others. The hope is that you can be persuasive so that she sees/understands where you are coming from. Let me give you an example from my own experience: how much to spend on kids' activities. my wife and i value this differently....since i am at work most of the day and grew up with the mantra "one sport/one music" activity, that is what i believe. My wife is constantly being barraged by the other stay-at-home-moms with the position that kids need constant exposure to a variety of activities (sports/cultural/musical/etc.) to optimize their development. You can imagine one position is more expensive than the other. At some point, i understand where she's coming from but she also does for me as well. We eventually compromise on a dollar amount that won't break the bank, but allows her some flexibility as well.

The trouble with all these sites is that all they seem to address is the maths and the rules. There is nothing that seems to help you change your personality and become more domineering or how to actually create a family or social or cultural environment in which to be able to achieve these things.

Well, we have to at least start with the math and the rules - that is the background from which we speak. I think we can all agree that spending more than you make will eventually not come out in the black. But then there is the next level of decision-making that is more personal/subjective: what are your priorities that will cause you to spend your limited resources on one thing over another? Since this is a Christian forum, we can hopefully put a few things on the table that are priorities such as tithing, covering your family's needs (food, shelter, basic clothing, etc.), and other special giving/offerings. There is probably some room for differing opinions on many of the other things (eg. retirement, college, vacations, hobbies, kids activities, etc.). you and your wife DO NEED TO DISCUSS THESE. Believe me, it is good for your marriage which, in my eyes, is the most real experiment/test on whether we can apply God's love in real life that we could ever experience. As gary said above, it goes back to your walk with the Lord. When these decisions are governed by His Word and a humble attitude to submit to His priorities, you will be able to create that family, social/cultural environment in which to achieve all these things and more. My concern is that the tone with which you write, andy, is one of self-defeat, helplessness, skepticism, and frustration. That will color your understanding of anything you read. If we go back to the most basic of foundations, that Christ came and died for our sins and we have this whole life to live for Him and His glory, we can see things with a radically different sense of freedom and joy. The money doesn't mean so much anymore....the relationships become all the more important and have eternal and lasting value....we can make our decisions with the hope that God will redeem everything in this fallen world someday. It makes life worth living.

[KrozFan]

Most of the time my wife and I barely have time for a conversation, let alone to sit down and set budgets for things.

This comes down to priorities. Take an honest look at why you don't have time for a conversation, let alone doing a budget. My guess is you could find some time in there. Unless you and your wife are working totally opposite shifts and you're heading to work as she gets home you should be able to find time. Setting money aside for a minute, you need to make time for your marriage. I don't know exactly what you mean when you say you barely have time for a conversation. If you guys have a "date night" but you don't talk abou serious stuff, you try to enjoy yourself, that's great, but if you really don't have any time together that's going to be rough on your marriage. Now I don't know much about you personally, how old you are, how long you've been married, or if you have kids, but I can tell you that personally I'm a young guy who's been married for a few years and it's not easy and you need to make sure to take the time to cultivate the relationship with your wife.

Anyway, back to the budget...

I am a pretty organised person, every one I know thinks this, but I just don't have the time, or opportunity for enough uninterupted, thought to manage everything to the level of detail that you recommend.

Everyone does a budget to a differnet degree. Dave Ramsey says every month, every dollar has a name and if something happens in the month that's unexpected we call an "emergency budget committe meeting" to decide where we'll make up that money...dude, let's take it down a notch. I don't do that. My wife and I don't do that. We set up a budget once, stick with it for a few months, and if it starts to not make sense anymore we do another one. We also have $100 for oops/life happens money so we build in a buffer.

I won't lie to you, the first time you do a budget it will take some time, but after that it gets much easier. If you and your wife don't have a lot of time together do as much as you can before you sit down together. Find out what you take in for an income and what your common expenses are. Some bills are just a fixed amount, rent/mortgage, insurance, cable/internet, phone, tithe/giving. And some things are roughly the same every month, electricity, gas (for cars), water/sewer, food. Get those down so you can go to your wife and say "we have this amount of money left after we pay those common bills, and we want to use the money in these categories..." and you list them, clothes, saving for a car/house, saving for christmas, and whatever else. After you get the first one done, the first month may be tough, then you refine it the next month, and again, then you get to a point where it's pretty easy.

Also I am not the right kind of personality to enforce on others the right level of imoveability and stubborn refusal to budge on my budget.

This is why you should work with your wife on a budget. Express your feelings, I'm a guy I know this may not be easy, but it's essential. If you're worried you need to tell your wife. If she's buying $500 worth of clothes a month and you think it's going to bankrupt you tell her (and on the flipside if there are any men out there buying $500 worth of gadgets a month and your wife thinks it's going to bankrupt you, speak up). Tell her that you think what you're currently doing isn't working and that it needs to change.

The trouble with all these sites is that all they seem to address is the maths and the rules. There is nothing that seems to help you change your personality and become more domineering or how to actually create a family or social or cultural environment in which to be able to achieve these things.

I'm not really sure what to do. But at the moment I don't think we're really in such a bad situation, but it looks like if I can't become like you, we may eventually be.

You shouldn't have to be domineering when you do this. You should be able to have a respectable conversation with your wife. If you can't then maybe you have some communication issues there that need to be addressed. Maybe you can't get across the point that you want to save some money, maybe she hears save money and thinks she'll have a life of poverty and no fun. If you could get a good conversation going where you understand where she's coming from and she understands where you're coming from it will help.

It happens on the Dave Ramsey show all the time, someone will call up and one partner spends tons of money on toys and Dave calls them a child. A woman called just the other day because her husband wanted to take 10k out of their childs savings to pay off some debt, but the guy had a motorcycle. Dave really went off on that one talking about how much of a boy this guy was, and how he's not a man and he needs to step up and be a man and sell his bike. Then someone will call up and say "Dave my wife won't stick to the budget I set" and Dave's like no, don't tell her what the budget is you have to work together, don't be her father be her husband, no wonder she doesn't want to stick to it.

If you're in a good church you may want to sit down with your pastor to act as a mediator, or with a marriage councelor. Someone who's experienced in some of this and can get some conversation going might be good. I also think you should look at your time. A budget shouldn't take hours and hours, you should be able to get a draft done in about an hour. You should be able to find this in your week, otherwise you have other issues you haven't discussed. If you're working a regular 40 hour week and driving a reasonable amount to work you should be able to find time. If you have kids and you spend time with them that's great, but maybe this week, for just an hour you need to say "daddy needs to do some work" and take care of the budget. It's priorities.

No one said this stuff was easy, but my wife and I are debt free, and I drove a beat up car for a while, and neither of us drive a super nice car now, and it's actually exciting. Some people at my office drive nice cars but panic when they have a $500 repair because where will they get $500. I heard people talk Monday about credit card interest rates being jacked up and how upset they were over it, and I'm just sitting there thinking how glad I was to not have that problem. Yes, it's totally a different mentality, but it's a sense of freedom that I can't describe. One of the great Dave Ramsey lines is "if you don't like being out of debt you can always go back in it" and believe me we won't be.

[KrozFan]

I thought about my post some more and want to make it clear that I'm not trying to come down on you Andy. You seem to want to know more about the emotional, personality, non math side of things and I'm trying to be honest. I don't know you, nor do I pretend to. Maybe you are a really busy guy and really don't have time to sit down with the wife, but that brings up another problem. Why are you that busy, are you working two jobs or some OT? If so and you're still having money problems you guys either have a major spending problem or you have jobs that don't pay well and you need to look for a change.

You can't change society, so don't try. You may be able to change a few people around you, but not all of society. People will make comments if you drive a beat up car. One of Dave Ramsey's (can you tell yet that I'm a fan) sayings is "you know you're on your way if broke people are making fun of you" If that's how you want to live your life than do it. You can change your family but that may take some time. Do it in stages if you need to. If your wife suddenly hears "let's cut up the credit cards, sell the cars, have a garage sale, never eat out, and cut our expenses to nothing" she's going to freak....probably. But that's one of the problems with these blogs, is everyone's personality is different. Some women may like that, they may be glad that their husband is doing something about the finances, some may go along but not be thrilled, some may object, and some may flat out rebel. So maybe you need to ease your wife into it and say we're going to start with a budget where we live on less than what we make, and move to cut up the cards, then move to sell a car and downgrade. I don't know what you need to do, I wish I could give you the answer, I'm sure we all do, but the fact is we just don't know you or your wife.

What I was trying to get at in my last post when I mentioned Dave Ramsey and how people sometimes act like children, is that maybe this is your wife. I hope it isn't, but maybe she's just acting immature. If that's the case it's not a money problem anymore it's a marriage problem, and I have no idea how to get your wife to act more mature. This is where sitting down with a pastor or marriage counselor may help. Then your question may be what if she won't go, well go without her. Try to learn to be a better communicator and work on yourself, maybe she'll tag along one time. If she still won't go talk to your pastor about how to get her there. Beyond that, I have no idea.

Maybe you don't have the discipline to this stuff on your own. I don't know how to help you there, because if your wife doesn't care about this stuff it's hard for her to keep you accountable. Personally I don't do anything "productive" after 10pm, I like to relax and wind down before bed. If you do something similar, I would say not tonight, tonight you're doing a budget, or part of a budget. If you have some down time this week work on the budget, don't watch TV (or insert your own personal vice here). If you're busy doing other things figure out what you can cut out this week. Do you volunteer...not this week you don't. Work some OT or second job...not this week.

Dave Ramsey had a caller the other day who had no money and was getting sued over a $1,200 medical bill and was freaking out. Dave mentioned how $1,200 would change her life, and how bad it was that this small amount of money was ruining her life. He mentioned having an "enough" moment, where you just say you've had enough with it and you vow to change. Maybe you just haven't had that moment yet, and maybe you won't make the time to do a budget until you get there.

By the way do you track your expenses using Mint.com, Quicken, or anything like that. I would recommend it, starting now. Even if you don't do a budget now you may at least be able to say to your wife, "we're paying x on these items, don't you think that's a lot" and maybe she'll come around.

Again Andy, I'm not trying to come down on you. These are tough topics that may involve unpleasant answers. I hope you're genuinly busy and not just sitting in front of the TV instead of doing a budget. I hope there's just a miscommunication between you and your wife and she's not just being immature. I hope everything turns out well for you two. If you have any specific questions feel free to post here, as you can see a few of us are on here regularly and love giving our opinions. If you don't want a question or its answers being public feel free to send me a private message if you'd like. Good Luck

[clydewolf]

Much good information has been offered here.

The very first thing to do is to identify your goals.
Pray about your goals, because what the world thinks and what God thinks may be mileniums apart.
Look at some short term goals, then look at some long term goals.
Write your goals on paper. Have your spouse do the same. Then come together to discuss what you want, and why.

Now you can begin to develop a plan to make the goals a reality.
And allow some fexability in your plans, asking God to guide in all that you do.
A budget is one of the tools you can use.
Taking good care of the things we have is another idea.

There are a lot of ideas around suggesting ways to reduce our expenses, or to gain more income. But other than having the will power to sometimes do without, and other times the courage to take some risks regarding employment, we need to always be seeking ways to spend less for the things we do truly need.

Goals first, then a plan, then the hard part execution!

[andy]

Ok every one thanks for all the advice. I really appreciate it.

I still feel that some times some people can have a tendancy to over simplify things.

However, to be fair some of my comments have probably been unwisely colored by a low point in life and an unhealthy tendancy to be a bit pedantic in my thinking.

Much of the advice has been very sound.

Thanks again, I shall consider all your advice with care.

Every Blessing.

P.S. We have children ranging from 2 to 17 (and corresponding sleeping and rising times), the eldest has ADHD and Autism and a range of health issues, our parents are elderly and cannot baby sit and we feel bad just asking people. We did have some regular baby sitters, but they have moved away.

A couple of regular baby sitters that we don't feel we are imposing on would be a real answer to prayer.

[4jacks]

I still feel that some times some people can have a tendancy to over simplify things.

I personally believe that you can never oversimplify things. K.I.S.S. is my motto for anything in life. You should try it, it makes life so simple.

Whenever I get overwhelmed and frustrated with anything (schoolwork, housework, real work, family issues, etc) I have to take a step back, take a breath and write down, What's my goal here, and what's the first step to get there.

A couple of regular baby sitters that we don't feel we are imposing on would be a real answer to prayer.

I do not have kids, so I'm not the best for advice.

But the other couples in my small group trade baby sitting on a pretty regular basis. You may want to join a small group just for that.

Also, if you are paying them a small bit of money to babysit, you are really not imposing. With the economy the way it is, there are a lot of people who would be very thankful for the oppurtunity.

[KrozFan]

I still feel that some times some people can have a tendancy to over simplify things.

However, to be fair some of my comments have probably been unwisely colored by a low point in life and an unhealthy tendancy to be a bit pedantic in my thinking.

Unfortunatly I think you've just been beat up over this, and you've been beat up to a point where you think these negative things. You need to start thinking positivly. Again, probably over simplifying things, but it's the truth. It's easy to sit there and say "they don't know me, they don't know my situation, they don't understand because they don't have kids, they don't have a kid with autism, they have good babysitters, what works for them won't work for me because they don't understnad..." Now I'll admit, simple idea, hard execution. You may need to get creative with how you do this. Maybe this weekend you put the 2 year old down for a nap and the 17 year old does an activity that he can do by himself in his room for an hour, and if you have a few children in between those ages they go to a friends house and play with their friend for that hour, or if you have an early teen maybe they can watch a little brother or sister for an hour, knowing that you're in the house if something goes wrong. I know it's not a perfect solution, and I know maybe it won't be that simple but it's an idea. Try thinking outside of the box of how to make things happen instead of "it's not that simple".

As far as babysitters are concerned, I think you should be able to find someone that you're not imposing on. It may cost money, but if you had to pay someone one night so you and your wife could sit down and get on a plan and get some peace of mind it could be worth it. Are you in a good church, I know sometimes they will have a list of teenagers who are willing to babysit and maybe you could get a list from them, or speak with whoever does the nursery at church and see if they know of someone. If you're just asking friends to do a favor I can see how you may feel like you're imposing, but if you're paying for a service it's that persons choice to babysit for money.

Again, I wish we could give you the solution. Try to stay positive. And if all else fails, maybe you and your wife stay up an hour late tonight and go into work a little tired tomorrow.

[pochax]

We have children ranging from 2 to 17 (and corresponding sleeping and rising times), the eldest has ADHD and Autism and a range of health issues, our parents are elderly and cannot baby sit and we feel bad just asking people. We did have some regular baby sitters, but they have moved away.

A couple of regular baby sitters that we don't feel we are imposing on would be a real answer to prayer.

I think one way many readers on this forum can serve you is to definitely pray for your request. I also echo the suggestions about finding that church community that will support you. I don't think any of us can fully realize your day to day trials and challenges that you face, but perhaps your church family can because they can see and interact with you in a very human and real way. finally, once you find that spiritual/emotional peace that God is for you and not against you, and that He would never give you a trial or temptation through which you cannot persevere (1 Cor 10:13), i think your financial peace will quickly follow.

God bless you, andy.

[hundredfoldnow]

Hi, new here, but I think Andy's question actually is very good. I've begun to partner with Christian PF and so think we're in sync.

I believe many of the things like "budgeting" are "tactical" -- but the way to really begin to address money is, as Andy described, complex.

To address it for myself, I actually began to comb through Scripture and came up with 40 that I could use in buckets of total transformation of our heart, mind, strength, and soul.

It's a very simple command, but it's very difficult and literally can turn things upside down:

"I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. (Mark 10:29-30)

I'm slowly finally begin to "get it" -- the budgeting and what is called "dogma" is actually "downstream" -- if that goes first, that is not leaving behind our security (home, family, fields) for the Gospel. Once it is "left behind" -- which doesn't mean abandoning them in a physical and irresponsible way, but by a full transformation, then all comes back "hundredfold."

I have more stuff like this on my website because I am finding *this* is taking the "red pill" to really change the way we live and experience a "hundredfold" life.

[emilyfox7]

I think I understand some of what you are saying and totally agree it is not so simple! For me, financial planning has always been very difficult. My biggest problem seems to be that when I am overly concerned about my budget I am distracted about what truly matters. I have always found comfort in my spiritual foundation but you are correct that in our society , it doesn't seem to count for much. I continue to try and make peace with myself because the ways of the world are in conflict with what I perceive to be a spiritual path.

[Jonathan K]

The last 7 posts seem to be spam...

This whole thread took a long time to read. Very interesting insights though. Thank you for sharring.