Has anyone heard of or used Joseph Wealth Systems?
I like to keep an eye out for any “interesting” financial program and this was the most recent one that was presented to me. I wrote about Primerica and had a discussion about Money Merge accounts in the past because they were different programs that needed to be talked about. I really want to hear what people have to say about Joseph Wealth Systems (JWS).
The first thing I noticed is that it is an MLM. Multi-level-marketing things in and of themselves don’t bother me, but often it is the people involved that leave a bad taste in my mouth. Just to be fair, this is not always the case, but I just hate wondering if my “buddy” is calling me to come over for dinner because he enjoys my company or if he secretly is just wanting to sell me something.
This is a copy of the referral email that I received….
Here’s what I’m doing now. It’s a gold savings plan where you get paid to save. It’s called the Joseph Wealth System. It’s based on Joseph in the Bible. When he was prime minister of Egypt he saw ahead that hard times were coming. He stored up grain, then he sold it to the people in exchange for silver and gold and a great wealth transfer occurred!! Then 400 years later, when Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt, God told them to go to the houses of the egyptians and get their silver and gold! Where did that come from? Joseph stored it up over 400 years earlier!!! Wow!!! I never get tired of hearing that. Anyway, I’ll send you the link and I’m always happy to talk to anybody about this stuff. I’m getting the tangible appreciating asset of gold paid for, plus cash in my pocket!! Paid to save!!!
The basics of JWS
Even after watching a couple videos and reading on their site about the program I am still a little confused as to what is actually going on. I think the way it works is that you set up a plan to buy gold coins from them, they auto-debit your account each month, and the person who introduced you gets a cut of that amount.
I don’t much about how to invest in gold (or any other precious metals), but from my experience the only people who make money with them are those who trade in and out at the right time. Those who buy and hold don’t seem to make too much, since their value and demand changes so often.
This is a chart of Gold prices over the last 33 years…
As you can see the last 10 years have been tremendous for gold prices. Remember the Golden Rule of investing: buy low, sell high. I can’t help but wonder why this company just started last year. Could it be that they realize that Gold is over-valued and they are trying to unload it before the prices adjust downward?
Gold as protection from Inflation
While I am uncertain about the ability of gold to continue it’s increase in value, I am confident in it as a hedge against inflation.
U.S. dollars are merely a piece of cloth that we have agreed is worth a certain amount. It’s value can and does change – quite rapidly sometimes. Our government has learned a few things and has put some protectors in place to minimize the likelihood of another Great Depression and control the inflation levels in the country.
But, as a country, the U.S. has some major financial flaws that are not very encouraging. If hyper-inflation did occur Gold, silver, maybe diamonds, land, etc would have a more consistent value than your paper money.
For this reason, I would consider buying gold, but I am not convinced that it would be useful as an appreciating asset. Maybe someone can help me out with this…
{ 79 comments… read them below or add one }
These are all very good questions. I ran across a website recently that has a short video series that will seriously open your eyes to the current economic situation, and why gold may be the investment of a lifetime: http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse
All the best,
Alex
@Rapid
thanks for sharing… before watching the video I am little skeptical, because I just don’t see gold as a solid longterm investment… but I will take a look
You ever notice how *after* some commodity like gold has a big run up, everyone starts talking about it? If you’re trying to buy low and sell high, that is usually the exact wrong time to buy some. I remember a few months ago when gold was up over $1000 I started seeing all kinds of ads and such for gold on CNN money. Strangely, after it had dropped 15% or whatever, the ads disappeared.
I’m not sure that they invented the system to get rid of their gold, more likely I would say that are trying to take advantage of the fact that gold seems to be in the news a lot these days.
@John
that is exactly what I was thinking when I first heard of this…
I think your toughts on this are quite sound. I have been in the JWS program from inception in January 2008. I joined because I could see that the fundamentals of gold (and silver) were good. As you said, these metals are a hedge against inflation, if anything. The JWS concept is difficult to market though. People find it tricky to get their minds around saving anything these days. Gold is currently on a downer but as I have studied it’s use over history, it always holds it’s value. In other words you can lock up your wealth in it and it won’t be ‘stolen’ by inflation.
I also know one of the founders personally and trust him…for what it’s worth. I will carry on with the scheme…at least it forces me to save!!
@Andrew
thanks for sharing, I am glad we got an insider to comment on the program.
As you mention it works well as a hedge against inflation and is an automatic savings plan – which it seems to me that it works quite well for both…
But, my concern is that long term appreciation rates seem like they will not have a chance of matching stocks, bonds, or possibly even a good money market account…
Hi Bob,
I think the problem with gold comes when people solely think of it as an investment ie. looking for a good return on income. The way I see it presently, is that gold is a store of value. In Roman times an ounce of gold would buy you a jolly good toga and a good pair of shoes. Today an ounce of gold will buy you a jolly good suit and a pair of shoes…the same value. With JWS the gold is at a premium, but only becasue of the business benefits (website, advice, and access to other cheap gold). You could just buy the shekels at around USD 140 each for 2.85 gram coin (for 4)…not bad.
Remember too that no one can buy gold at the spot price, to get an ounce of gold physically delivered to your house costs much more than that. Also shekels are non-bearer coins which cannot be confidcated, so there are a few benefits..
Andrew
http://www.jwsgoldsilver.com
By the way, if you want to hear more and ask questions, there is a webinar at:
Title: JWS – Slavery of DEBT to freedom of SAVINGS! – European webinar – (English)
Date: Tuesday, August 12, 2008
Time: 8:00 PM – 9:00 PM CEST Germany
Andrew
http://www.jwsgoldsilver.com
After researching this in detail, it is a clever system to make you not look at the big picture. When I looked you had to sign up to buy 1/10th oz of Gold every month for US$250, more than twice the market price. Then if you introduce more members underneath you you will get a component of their monthly investment, in essence your $100-150 extra pays other people. Does pyramid/chainletter ring a bell? There is nothing in their model that generates money except for people buying overpriced gold. Now some would argue, Tupperware is exactly the same thing! I agree, however, Tupperware NEVER says that buying their things will make you rich, it is simply a consumption commodity.
With their own example, in their powerpoint, of how much money you can make ($35,000 a month), over 1 million people would be involved in your tree (your referrals and subtrees) alone and only a small part of them would actually make a profit. That is not an sustainable business.
My take is that, if you want to buy gold, then get the best price and buy gold. If you want to be part of an MLM then research and get behind a good MLM. The two combined will only leave unhappy faces.
I’ve been involved actively for a few weeks with JWS.However I spent a good three months checking out the company and it’s leadership and colleagues.I’ve been satisfied that ,as far as worldly companies are concerned,they have been of a high standard.The above article was a very fair and balanced assessment.The concerns mentioned are valid,important and worth being aware of when examining Multi-Level Marketing.For example I have joined excellent copanies,built up a network,qualified for good bonus payments and then found that the company has ceased to trade.Another myth of MLM is that it is an easy road to riches and high self- esteme. True self esteme comes only from the knowledge that I am a son of God an saved though his Son Jesus Christ.However most people who come into MLM’s are not aware of this point.
Just a quick response to Daniel’s comment. JWS does have some other positives than simply being an MLM. Firstly, if someone wants to buy gold, in the form of a coin, then they can buy from colleagues. Colleagues then earn a commission on this. This has good possibilities in the current financial climate to earn income. Affordable, small denomination, tradable gold as a backup to the fiat money system. So, JWS doesn’t just mean earning an income from signing up new colleagues. Also, remember that with Tupperware you buy a consumable item that will not retain it’s value. With gold, you buy a product that will be a store of wealth.
If you want to invest in Gold, Great! JWS is just like any other MLM paying way to much money for the product. Seems really silly.
Hi Jerry,I liked your comment.Generally what you have written is correct.However these are todays prices.A Golden Koala is 243 dollars for a tenth of an once.It contains copper. The JWS Gold Sheckle is 175 dollars for a tenth of an once.The Sheckle is pure 24 C gold whereas nearly all gold coinage is only 22 C gold.I’ll leave it to you to do the math.
SPOT ON!
“If you want to invest in Gold, Great! JWS is just like any other MLM paying way to much money for the product. Seems really silly.”
At the end of the day an MLM company like this is only going to benifit the one’s at the top of the tree. in a few years time it will end up like most MLM’s failing, and the people at the top waving to it’s creditors and followers from a private cruise ship with a smile (and a champagne in the left hand!).
I have studied many MLM’s and similar set up’s over the years, they look great on the outside, lots of hype about this and that like it’s the fastest growing company in the world right now!etc, etc. reality check; I have also predicted the ones that would fail and guess what…. they did and guess what…so will this one!
As I mentioned above, one of the positives about JWS is that if it does all go to custard the colleagues are left with…you guessed it…Gold. Gold that is physically in their possession. Unlike other MLMs where you buy a pot of goo that has no value. Yes, it’s expensive gold, but it is a business and what’s more, there are no start-up costs and no penalties for leaving. Also, the Gold may actually turn a profit, even at the JWS colleague price, with the way inflation is kicking in.
JWS is a good system. Here’s a little education. The guy behind the whole thing is Peter Daniels from Australia. Do a little research on him. You’ll see he is the richest man on the continent of Australia and probably one of the richest in the world. He is also a Christian of very high integrity. He cares for people and wants people to be able to build wealth. Great company…great idea. Gold will always have more value than any paper currency. Especially in hard economic times. Citi Bank expects gold to hit $2000 an ounce this year. Currencies world wide are losing value daily. When the stuff really hits the fan and the 10 trilion debt of the USA catches up to us…which it is now and will continue to do so. You better have gold and quite a bit of it or you won’t be able to buy a loaf of bread.
The information regarding Peter Daniels is not accurate and you would not want to send this out. I’ll give you some bullet points:
• Peter Daniels has had nothing to do with the formation, nor the development of JWS
• He is certainly not the richest man on the continent of Australia nor even close to being among the wealthiest in the world. (Although we know this has been put forward around the world for years, it is a seriously exaggeration of the truth).
• Although Peter Daniels, along with his son were instrumental in the formation of Anglo Far East Company, they have not been involved for well over 2 years.
If you want to check out what Peter Daniels is up to these days go to http://www.gabrielcall.com/index2.htm
Also Graham along with his father have developed their own range of gold & silver products
http://www.danel.ch/2page.asp
Actually, looking at the big picture is why I’m a JWS colleague. The big picture is a growing global economic “crisis” with Trillions of dollars of new debt that will not be the answer to a debt problem in the first place.
The 1/10 oz shekel is not $250 but you are correct that the extra $100 a month is a premium paid for the ever improving business infrastructure called your Backoffice and commissions are paid from it as well. I find my Backoffice extremely valuable as it keeps track of everything! Admittedly, the premium on a shekel or 1/4 shekel is a bit more than you’d pay on ebay for govt. issued gold but I’m acquiring the security of privately minted bullion. Did you know that when you have govt. minted bullion you are only ever the bearer and not the owner of that gold? That’s how the govt. was able to legally confiscate gold in 1933.
As far as being a pyramid. A pyramid only works if more and more people join to pay the other below them. I make commissions on every customer’s purchase whether they get involved in JWS as a business or not(and as of today 3/13/09 that is about $140 for a 1/4 shekel). So it is not true that only a “small part of them would actually make a profit”. Of course the more people that are part of your tree the more you do make. Also, you can stop at any time if you choose to to.
“In 2007 and 2008, Rod Cook was invited by JWS™ to visit the company’s administration offices and review its systems including; management, supply, fulfillment and distribution systems, administration, policies and procedures, marketing systems and compound savings pay plan.
“Joseph Wealth Systems is the only legal Network Marketing company in the gold sales business I know of since they concentrate on selling gold to end consumer retail customers as well as their distributors. Having end consumer retail customers is an essential part of maintaining legality worldwide. Rod Cooke, MLM Consultant”
As far as Tupperware…not the same as all. Tupperware has no lasting value whereas gold has been money for over 5000 years. I’m not turning some of my cash each month into gold to make money I’m saving in gold because our fiat money system cannot be trusted. Our whole point is to get people saving in a tangible assest irregardless of whether they become a colleague with JWS. I did decide to get involved in the business side of it because I’m passionate about precious metals ownership. Just as in Joseph’s time the economic winds of change are blowing. Payday is upon us for the past decades of debt based consumption.
Amazing that some people in other posts think there’s anyone out unloading excess inventories of gold before the price tanks. Demand is at record levels and much greater than supply! Some mints have even had to suspend sales for periods of time. There’s so much information on this out there.
In short, JWS came about through a strategic alliance with Anglo Far-East Bullion Company, providing JWS with close to two decades of success in the international bullion, wealth and asset management industry. Through JWS you can buy reasonably priced privately minted gold. If you want to create another stream of income in your life JWS can help do that through a savings based business model. If done right gold and MLM can combine…
Your letter was well informed , well written, honest and factual. If you are upfront and open-eyed to defects eg $100 U.S. dollar Technical Support, You can still earn a good income without risking your integrity. You are to be congratulated for striking the right balance. All the best from Douglas.
I have read and respect everyone’s opinion concerning the above article.
I am an avid student of gold/silver and have incorporated investing in both as a way of life…(read the book “The Richest Man in Babylon” and you’ll understand what I mean)
I think a lot of people get all mishmashed with financial and investment technicalities that are all based on the DEBT system that has plagued all of us for a long time…and if speaking of only that system, I definitely agree with the lot of you.
However the bible had a very simple rule in doing business and that was the concept of using “just weights and measures” and “usury was forbidden” (name 1 company in the finance world that practices this standard to the letter.) the JWS business model is based on that principle and I feel it to be a very honest way of doing business and more importantly a great way to invest in a tangible asset even if you were not interested in participating in the business model. The MLM part is not something I find to be threatening because you’re dealing with a superior product (GOLD i.e. asset not consumable). If I am greatly benefiting from applying these principles in my own life, it’s only natural that I’d want to share it with others so they too can benefit. If along the way we both end up making money from it together….GREAT!
I agree with some of you that initially it’s tedious to get others to understand this because it requires them to UNLEARN some things they were taught in school or from the media.
I feel pushing this idea onto others is unwise and NOT necessary…I always insist that the people I share this with NOT take my word for it. If they stop and do their own due diligence with an open mind and are willing to unplug from the “matrix” so to speak, they will get the revelation on their own and the concept speaks for itself and makes good sense as a long term store of wealth that retains its value no matter what economic environment you find yourself in and is liquid 24/7…what other investment or financial instrument can do that?? I LOVE it when people I share this with all of a sudden call me up all excited after a week or two of doing their own research and tell me they totally get it and want to know how they can start doing this for themselves.
I appreciate the diversity of comments so far. My wife and I stumbled upon Joseph Wealth Systems this week and have been doing some research. We would like to know how long it has been in existence and when it changed its name to “Younique Wealth”? What is the cost to get in and does the monthly requirement cost fluctuate depending on the market price of gold? I would also like to know what the connection is between the distribution company and the supplier of the gold?
Hi Bruce,
YOUnique Wealth changed it’s name about 2 months ago from Joseph Wealth Systems. The business has been in operation since January 2008. My wife and were one of the first to join and have been treated well and have been receiving gold each month since then.
There is no cost to join, but to be a Business Owner you need to be on autosave each month. As a Business Owner there is a premium on the monthly cost so that you can be involved in the business and earning an income. There are a number of options with autosave. If you go to http://www.youniquewealth.com/ and click on the presentation there, it will give you a good rundown of these options.
YOUnique Wealth use Argor Heraeus in Switzerland to manufacture their gold and silver products. Argor Heraeus are one of the largest and most reputable Mints in the world. They belong to the LBMA. The product is shipped from here around the world. YOUnique Wealth have never had a problem with supply, unlike other Mints around the world (eg Perth Mint). In all our time with them, we have always received our gold and silver in a timely fashion.
YOUnique is a great opportunity in these economic times.
Hi Bruce,
What Andrew shared is correct.
You also asked about the cost fluctuating as the spot price for gold/silver rises and falls. With the transition from Joseph Wealth Systems to YOUnique we moved from a variable priced autosave program to a fixed price autosave system. Now there are three levels of autosave if you choose the Savings Route : $250 per month, $500/mth and $1500/mth. This amount is credited to your account each month automatically from a charge card and depending on what your balance is and what product you are signed up for{1/4 shekel, full shekel, 100 gr. silver bar or 250 gr. silver bar} they send you your gold and/or silver and the remaining stays on your balance.
There is also a Wealth Education route which I’m looking forward to coming out as I’ve really appreciated everything that I’ve learned from the guys from Anglo Far East Bullion Co. (www.anglofareast.com), which is the bullion bank out of which YOUnique has come {Argor Heraeus is the actual mint as Andrew explained} I’ve listened to all of their teleconferences they’ve archived and come away greatly enriched.
Glad you “stumbled” on YOUnique
Thanks for all of your comments! I decided to proceed ahead with joining, however, there seems to be a problem with the website. There is a login “button” for existing members but no “join now” button. Please advise.
I’m going to combine my response to a few of the above postings.
1) Just because a person is “Christian and cares about your future” doesn’t mean he will do the right thing. On the contrary, this sells to your emotions and not the contractual part of the arrangement. In other words, if something isn’t quite right and you ask about it the response will be “oh, but he cares and will never let you down.” Watch out!
2) Anybody is free to buy overpriced gold, therefore I’m more than happy to sell any JWS person gold at 35% lower rate than JWS and it will be stamped and approved bullion from Switzerland. You immediately save 35% by buying my gold. In addition, if you add another $50 per 1/10 ounze (which is only about 50% extra on the gold price) I will be more than happy to pass on a commission for anybody who introduces other people as long as you keep on buying overpriced gold from me every month (otherwise I will not have the bucks to keep up my spreadsheet).
3) Lisa… if you have to pay $250 for 1/10 of an ounce of gold (regardless of what back end administration you get), the price for your valuable asset is $250 for 1/10 of an ounce. To recoup your expense you have to either increase the value of your asset (in this case to 150% of today’s value of gold) or get your money from elsewhere. The “elsewhere” is to get other people to buy overpriced gold as well. BTW, I do agree with you, the price isn’t $250, it is $299 according to your cited website AND for $179 per month you can get absolutely no gold whatsoever (what a bargain!!!!!).
4) $2,000 per ounce. Well if this happened, you are still 20% behind, not infront at all. If this is your belief, mortgage your house and buy futures in gold and you will make an absolute killing in profit. If you are not that sure, then just buy gold on the normal market, you should double your money according to your calculations, which isn’t bad! But buying JWS you are assuming one of the biggest increases of all in gold just to be 20% behind your invested capital. Now I don’t have to be a rocket scientist to understand that that is a bad investment.
5) So far, nobody’s has shown me their complete tree of investors and what each of them are making, in other words, very few are making a profit. In lack of this I have no other information to use than the one provided by JWS, and it doesn’t add up for everybody to make a profit or even the majority. Lisa… show us your whole tree and how much each person makes and why? (Actually, I shouldn’t even bother to ask as it won’t happen).
Sorry for being sarcastic but I have seen too many of these type of schemes floating through and none stand up to the tough questions. The fact they may be “approved” by some organisation doesn’t mean they provide a profitable business, it simply means they are legal. It is legal for me to get you to donate to me $150 per month ($250-$100 of gold).
Cheers – Daniel
Hi Daniel,
I appreciate your sarcasm. Always good to answer the hard questions! The other facet to YWS is becoming like a ‘bullion seller’. In other words, you can concentrate on getting one-off customers or customers on autosave. These customers will pay the ‘market’ price for YWS gold (us$150 odd) and silver and not the Business Owner prices. The Business Owner then gets a small commission (around US$15 for each 1/10 oz sale).
Also, at this level, the product is very competitive in price. I have done an analysis of similar products here in NZ and Australia and the YWS shekels are a good price.
Also, as you know, you can’t buy small amounts of gold and silver at close to the spot price. There’s always a premium for small denominations. It’s a bit like buying meat. You can’ get meat for the price of a cow. You have the premiums involved in dicing and slicing and processing to get it to your table.
Daniel,
Wow! Your comments are quite sarcastic and something tells me you’re not really sorry either…
I have been open and honest in my posts and nobody is trying to just sell “over priced gold”. We’re trying to make it not only affordable, but profitable.
YOUnique is built on three pillars:
1) Education – developing our gold mind
2) Wealth Preservation – protecting our wealth from confiscation via inflation
3) Diversified Income Steams – self explanatory
Though you poo-poo the idea the $179 Education Route is a good way to start your own gold and silver business, be furthering your education and the education of others and yet qualify to be earning commissions.
The directors of YOUnique have gone out of their way to make getting cash flow positive as quick a process as possible. Nobody should get involved with any business without doing their due diligence about those running the company. Having heard two men from Anglo Far East speak on a couple of occasions and having listened to their archived teleconferences I satisfied myself on their character, world view and economic perspective. I would suggest that it might salve some of your skepticism to actually join one of the webinars (held weekly)and hear from the horse’s mouth, so to speak, what we’re about. You’ll also be able to ask question and have them answered.
I’ve done a cost comparison on premiums between several privately minted coins and so far have only found one other source whose premiums where less than YOUnique but they have a $5000 minimum purchase. I’m not interested in comparing apple to oranges and comparing privately minted with govt. issued. If you have an alternative source and you’re willing to put together the business system, infrastructure and training I’ll take a look at it.
Thanks, 2 quick replies!
Ok, firstly I will take in on my cheek and stand corrected in regards to the Business Owner. I haven’t been informed that you could either be a Business Owner or just by Shekels. I do appreciate that JWS provides an admin overhead which is value and needs to be paid for. I do assume that you have done your calcs and made sure it makes sense for you as a business.
Secondly, I will keep sarcasm to a minimum and try to be as clear and factual as I can
Now to the real issue. If you have a business, you need a product. The product can be a handbag from K-Mart at a very low cost or all the way to a Gucci handbag at a cost we all earn per month. Btw, I’m not comparing Gold to handbags, it is just an illustration of the scope. The key is to target the appropriate clients with the right products. So continue the analogy, the Gucci handbags won’t do well at a market and likewise, the K-Mart handbags won’t do well at Harrod’s in London. I think you get my drift.
Now to JWS, selling an investment. “Building your goldmine to produce a goldmine”, “Be paid while saving” etc…. I have no issue with those statements if they live up to them. But obviously it is about building wealth which is targeted to literally any person who can save 1/10 ounce of value a month (or possibly even less?).
Saving is about acquiring wealth over time. This means that the investment needs to be fast growing if there is a significant spread (difference between buy/sell) or less if the spread is lower. Simplified, a term deposit, which has low growth literally has no spread. While an option or future has a larger spread as the profits can be huge in a very short time.
Like with all investments it is interesting to run some numbers. Let’s remember some conditions on the 2 scenarios I have illustrated:
No consideration to inflation
1) Same spread on buying and selling regardless of gold price
2) Buy price across all Gold has same inflated price as today. Shekels at 50% and Krugerrands at 20-25%.
3) Sell prices are the spot price for all Gold
4) I’m comparing Shekels with Krugerrands and in addition a CMT which pays 4% p.a. PLEASE note I am NOT compounding the interest.
5) Growth is linear
6) No hedging
7) Shekels are as easily sold as Krugerrands
Here are my 2 Scenario’s:
1) Over the next 12 months the gold price will go from $1,000 to $1,500. This must be any gold owners dream.
2) Since saving is a long term the above example isn’t quite proper, so let’s make it a timespan of 10 years and the gold prices will go from $1,000 to $3,000. I think you all agree this is a very positive but plausible scenario and it will be at the top of any asset class.
SCENARIO 1:
All have saved $2,212.50
JWS: has $1,800 in Spot value gold: LOSS of $412.50
Kruggerand: has $1,641 in spot value gold and $431 in cash: LOSS of $140.40
CMT: Has $2,2212.50 in cash + $42 in interest: PROFIT of $42
SCENARIO 2:
All have saved $36,150
JWS: has $36,000 in Spot value gold (12 Oz) : LOSS of $150
Kruggerand: has $39,000 in spot value gold (13 Oz as it is cheaper and it will in reality be more) and $1,342.50 in cash: PROFIT of $4,192.50
CMT: Has $36,150 in cash + $6090.33 in interest: PROFIT of $6,090.33
NOTE: running the numbers and saying that gold over 10 years will go to $5,000 you still better of with the CMT compared to JWS but the winner will then be the Krugerrand.
In short, the numbers speak for themselves. Run them yourself, it is not a tricky spreadsheet, and you will see that even a normal CMT will outperform JWS with ease.
JWS must have an incorrect spelling check. The real catch phrase must be “Pay to be Saving”.
Now to my sarcastic part:
I do agree with the Joseph story. (I am a man of faith strangely enough). Buy gold today at any price and in 400 years your grand-grand-grand-grand-grand…… children will thank YOU! They will not care what price you paid for it, in the same way as Moses didn’t care (or could).
To a more serious tone though, and I think we all can agree on this. To grow your wealth you have to do your homework, see what suits your goals, investment strategy and liquidity requirements and simply not take anybody’s word for anything. Spread your risk and exposure, and THEN make sure you are happy with YOUR decision.
Cheers – Daniel
Just to clarify, in the Krugerrand scenario the money is saved until a full ounce of gold can be bought (as Krugerrands are normally 1 ounce), which on average gives a new ounce every 9-10 months. I have not included any interest component for the Krugerrand.
Let’s compare 1/10 oz Krugerrand to 1/10 oz YOUnique shekel as a better comparison although there are some differences. Maybe you can find it cheaper but what I found this morning was at http://www.govmint.com/item/2007-1%2F10-Oz-Gold-Proof-Krugerrand-PR69/1803697/42 for $549.
There are still some differences in the coins. For example, gold content (shekel 99.99, Krug. .917 but per gram the premiums are 40.07% and 79.33%) You could actually buy a full shekel for exact same price with a 26.84% premium and have about 3 times the amount of gold.
Both coins are ‘proof’ condition but one big difference is the Krugerrand is legal tender whereas YOUnique shekels are not. By comparison, government issued bullion coins are always the property of the issuing government; the holder is only ever the ‘bearer’, never the owner. Shekels are non-government issued. This is an issue that one must or at least should consider when weighing your options.
Hi, I’ve been following the email posts. Enjoyed Daniels’ analysis. Lisa B has some good points also. I thought it might be helpful to the debate to state a view on the not-obvious mindset motivating JWS members. I do not claim the following opinion is totally representative of all or most members- The reason gold is bought by them: There is a belief that the world financial system as it stands, is doomed to catastrophic failure. The core reason is that there is no commodity of substance backing world currencies. When the penny drops we could be looking at hyper-inflation which would invalidate Daniels’ analysis. Then Lisa B would be valid. So JWS is a End Of World cult or religion stockpiling gold (not worrying about a very poor business compensation plan or indefensible I.T fee each month) . Thanks for a lively debate. Douglas.
Why do you say “a very poor business compensation plan or indefensible I.T fee each month”
“So JWS is a End Of World cult or religion stockpiling gold” – Wow…now we’re a cult!? I know a lot of people in a healthcare cult because they purchase health insurance each month and hope they don’t have to use it…they are brainwashed by the hypnotic words of the health insurance companies to buy overpriced insurance that they might not use for the next 5 or 10 years!
“There is a belief that the world financial system as it stands, is doomed to catastrophic failure.” Maybe, but I wouldn’t say the whole world. I would say that the dollar’s days are limited.
“The core reason is that there is no commodity of substance backing world currencies.” Yes, removing the discipline of a gold or silver standard has allowed the undisciplined printing of currency, thus devaluing it. “In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. … This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists’ tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists’ antagonism toward the gold standard.” Alan Greenspan
When the penny drops we could be looking at hyper-inflation…” I hope not, but hope is a pretty flimsy excuse for doing nothing.
I think a main sticking point here is whether you are a govt. issued gold buyer or a privately minted gold buyer. Govt. issued is definitely the cheaper way to go. What an individual has to decide for themselves is whether the risk is worth it. For me he U.S. federal govt. has not proven themselves to be trustworthy. They have abused the ability to tax, robbed social security (talk about a Ponzi scheme!) and spent trillions more(of our money) than they have coming in. In some kind of a crisis what would keep them from repeating Roosevelt’s move in 1933? Sound improbable…maybe. Some argue that b/c we are not on a gold standard today it is not plausible. Personally, I like the idea of ownership. I don’t like the idea of simply being the bearer of govt. issued gold or silver.
Life does not go along linearly…for example, who would have thought several years ago that the federal government would own car companies? Things change and you cannot judge tomorrow by today.
I think it’s worthy of consideration to start your own business where you can be cash flow positive by recruiting just 3 people to start their own business and helping them host 3 people (not counting commission on sales to customers). I know network marketing is distasteful to some (myself included) b/c most are built on consumption and the need for empty bottles at the end of the month that need to be replaced. YOUnique is unique in the respect that it is savings based, you have more of something at the end of the month.
How many people are losing their jobs or have only one income? Besides, if there was ever the right timing for something the time is right for a company like YOUnique. The demand for a limited supply is only going to grow and I chose a company (Anglo Far East) with proven supply when others are having to suspend minting at times. Right now there is only about ½ oz of gold per person available above ground, so for every ounce one person owns 2 more are locked out. What an opportunity to be on the supply side!
Whether you buy from me or not, the important thing is that you do something to protect you and your family from the mostly hidden from view ravages of inflation.
Lisa!
Comparing collectors items of gold in limited editions with the normal run of the mill Krugerrands. That’s like comparing Vintage cars with trucks.
Have a look at this from the very same website http://www.govmint.com/item/2009-Krugerrand-1-oz-BU/1803764/42
Daniel!
Granted I was stretching it a bit because of the limited numbers but it was late. Tonight I saw the Panda, which is a better yet comparison. The point is to compare two collectible coins of close to the same weight against each other as a better comparison than the full ounce Krugerrand vs a ¼ shekel. I think you probably meant to post the link to the 1/10 oz Krugerrand instead of the full ounce but I see they have a Panda coin with a mintage of approx. 45,000. I will check on the mintage of our shekels but I’m speculating it to be within this ballpark. The Panda is priced at $199 vs the ¼ shekel at $159.80. Add to that their shipping for $17.95($29.95 for 4) vs YOUnique’s shipping at $10 (same $10 for 4). Would you buy the Panda?
Lisa B, I’m replying in answer to your two questions(Oct 7 2009 , 7:14 PM).
1) One of my hobbies is analysis of various marketing compensation plans(stair-step,binary etc). When modeling various group sizes and various configurations, after a short time major flaws begin to appear. If you examine the JWS diagram showing showing the group seven layers deep. There is a short-fall in bonus payments of approximately $ 100,000 U.S. dollars. There are comparisons that give even worse results. However I used the AMWAY sales and marketing compensation plan because they are an example of a good industry standard that has been around for some time.
Reply to Lisa B part two,
2) The I.T. charge really is a matter of your personal view of what is value for money. Apart from time-zone issues, JWS have been helpful and friendly.
However the usual industry standard is to build the I.T. costs into the upfront distributor premium or an annual renewal fee of approx $ 75 dollars U.S.
P.S. My comment ‘End of world cult or religion’ was unfair and went too far. Please accept my apology. Also I share most of the sentiments of the mind-set outlined. Thank you Lisa B for your questions. Douglas.
Lisa,
“Collectable items”? So you are saying that the JWS Shekels are a collectible item? Now that I can appreciate as it has nothing to do with savings or investments. Yes, if you want a nice talk-item on your mantelpiece then a Shekel will do it a lot cheaper than other gold collectables. Just like my vintage car, a 1965 Porsche 911 original. Huge price which will take ages to recover (if ever)….. and my wife wasn’t (and isn’t) happy about it. Totally agree with you.
Now JWS doesn’t promote there shekels as a collectible item, but rather as a saving/investment/protection. So let’s get back to investments and savings. I was expecting a storm of debate why JWS isn’t better than my 4% p.a. account comparison. So far nothing.
Comparing a 1/10 ounce to a 1 ounce is perfectly fair, however, if i was to compare a 1/10 with a full bar then it wouldn’t be. I wanted to pick a time frame that investors can live with, so less than a year was the key. To save to buy a whole bar would take decades. But yes, if you can buy a 1 ounce Shekel every 9-10 months instead then we can compare that with the 1 Oz Krugerrands. The point is that it still wouldn’t be that different as far as I know. The CMT at 4% p.a. would still perform better than a 1/10 Oz or a 1 Oz Shekel.
With savings/investments JWS should provide a entry/exit scenario so that you can compare with other investment products. This is standard practice. The fact that one doesn’t exist or I haven’t seen one puts the red lights on.
Daniel
PS. Doug! You’re on the ball!
Douglas,
Apology accepted. Could you explain more fully what you mean by the shortfall. Also, are you taking into consideration fast start up bonuses of $50 for level 1, $40 for level 2 and $10 for level 3?
Also, in my opinion, “I.T.” doesn’t really describe the sum total of benefits of being a business owner{besides $100 gold or silver grams per month and commissions} . Here are some more using the ‘Savings Route’ as an example; a global business, global logistics infrastructure, internationally flexible banking system, personal website, business back office to manage and grow your business, online customer retail shop, $100 YOUbucks that may be used for conferences and seminars, YOUnique TV{coming soon}, wealth training and education calls and webinars. I’m not sure how this stacks up against others b/c I wasn’t looking for a product based on it’s compensation plan. I became interested b/c I saw that precious metals were going to become a necessity and this was one way to get people educated and make it possible for some who would not normally be able to do it.
There have been some hitches along the way in starting up a new company like this but I have always found leadership responsive to their business owners and I appreciate their emphasis on transparency.
Hi Lisa B, I’ll get back to you later to give a more detailed answer. I have about six pages of calculations that I will have to compress into this format. But just in summary, I’ve compared outlay for outlay, business volume for volume and taken into account QUICK START and FAST START bonus packages. In other words apples with apples, oranges with oranges. What happens over TIME to earnings after the first and second months of activity are also important factors to consider in calculations. I hope it wont take too long to get back to you.
Douglas.
P.S. Hi to Daniel also.
or you could just email it to me at goldandsilver2@comcast.net. Hopefully I’ll be able to follow it…6 pages!
Daniel,
Let’s try this again. Say you sign up tomorrow as a business owner in my sales group and in the next 30 days you host 3 people into their own business and then help them host 3 (you sound like you know what you’re doing so you wouldn’t even need my help). You would then earn Fast Start bonuses of $510 plus uni-level commissions of $360. This makes your gold free and the rest of your monthly costs are covered as well just through your uni-level commissions. Sounds like a potent way to turn some of your green into gold and save in a tangible asset that has always been a superior store of wealth.
You keep speaking of investments that return a certain percentage. I speak of building a storehouse of tangible wealth that buys the same thing today that it did even hundreds of years ago. With our dollar only being worth about 8% of what it was in 1913 and rapidly dropping what’s the big deal if after some investment vehicles maturity I have 4% more. Woohoo, l put 100 in the bank and at the end of the year I had 4 more pieces of paper! I may have gained 4% but behind the scenes the Fed has printed billions more and devalued my pieces of paper. In the end I have 104 of them but in the rosiest of scenarios my whole stack is only worth 98
Think about it, in 1933 the average medium priced home cost about $5750 or 278 oz of gold. Today a medium priced home is about $247,900 or the same 278 oz. of gold. The problem is not the price of gold it’s the value of the dollar. I am no richer today because I have a quarter million of those things than I would have been in 1933 with 6000 of them but it sounds like it because the number is bigger. Ain’t inflation great? I think we have really different ways of looking at things.
By the way, in my opinion comparing 1/10 oz and 1 oz. is not fair comparison. It is my understanding that to turn that 1 oz. into 10 separate coins you will have 20 striking fees and they are not nominal like pouring fees are for bars.
To use the insurance metaphor again…we have different insurance plans to choose from and they are priced differently. I want a little higher protection because I think I might need it so I choose a plan that would cost me a little more if I was paying for it (this would be small denomination privately minted coins). I could find a cheaper product but it doesn’t offer the coverage I’m looking for.
There will come a time in the cycle when it will be time to sell but that is a good way off. There is much to unfold around the world before we’ll know when it is time to convert the gold into another tangible asset like land or a house.
Hi Lisa B, I jotted down your email address, I will send you a test email and wait for a reply before sending the material. Douglas.
Hi Lisa,
Firstly, the business proposition. I assumed you had this one worked out and that’s why I left it alone. Since you brought it up here you go:
Get 3 people, get them to get 3 each (12 people) and you have your gold free…. nice! I do agree, it isn’t that a bad proposition. But I do assume from your numbers that this needs to happen before my gold is free.
The sell to the next 3 is the same thing, they get 3 and get each of them to get 3 and their gold is free of charge. Simplified I see that this is the business sell story.
From the above it is only the 1st person who makes it for free. How big is the market? Well, world population is about 7billion(?). Usually, any business proposition says that “by joining us you can join us into a $xxxmillion market and we already have yy% of it. In the JWS case we need to look at people. Who in the whole world can buy 1/10 a month. I am assuming but let’s make this number 1 billion people. So assuming that you are the originator then how many levels can you have underneath you in best case? The answer is 19.
Now I am sure that JWS has more than 1 originator. I’m going to pick 50. Let’s assumes that JWS has appointed 50 originators directly underneath JWS and that they are responsible for providing the downline. So if all 50 are able to get 13 levels below then you have 80,000,000 people at that level and 119,000,000 in total. Which means that if what you are telling me is true then 106,000,000 are paying the price and 13,000,000 are getting their gold for free. How are the 106,000,000 people able to get their gold for free??? There is NO WAY!
Whichever way you turn it this is a pyramid.
If I am at the top of this I will make a squillion, but, at what level am I joining you and the whole JWS structure? And, how can I with a clear conscious promote it when I know people will miss out?
The business proposition is limited. The earlier you get in the more of a chance you have to make gold or money but you have no idea of where you are in the tree. Do you know where you are in the tree and how the tree looks like from JWS? I would assume this to be a standard document from them but apparently not.
As you can see from above, not all can make gold from this scheme as a business owner, there is NO WAY! Even if everybody tried their hardest the people in the world runs out and after 1 billion people introduced (15-16 perfect levels from 50 originators). I believe you could convert 10-20% at the best, this equates to 13-14 levels, but in reality you might get 2% (7-8 levels). Regardless, we need a population growth similar to hyper-inflation to make this a viable business for all participants.
Secondly, back to the product – 1/10 Oz shekels. Let’s assume for this that the world economy keeps on going pretty much as it has been. If I am sitting on 12 oz of shekels in 10 years and need to sell 8 oz to buy my daughter an electric wheelchair, which is the equivallent price as of today. You must agree that I would have been better of putting that money into a 4% p.a. account! Right?
I like your house example. The issue is that while I bought my house I have had use of it, my family had use of it etc… over all of these years, while if I bought gold I just had gold which I couldn’t use. In other words, ask anybody if they rather buy a house for 278 oz in 1933 or have the gold, knowing it would be worth the same today….. well, pretty simple answer, especially when they could enjoy it at the same time.
Now, I am starting to agree with Douglas. There has to happen something extraordinary to make this gold worth something of substance. What is it? Please tell me Lisa? Also, you bring up insurances again, well at least they tell me why I need it such as “if you need a hip replacement you will not be out of pocket”. Then I can make a decision if I need coverage for a hip replacement. Again, tell me the scenario(s) you see that require gold rather than other investments.
Cheers – Daniel
PS. If I put my money into the Dow Jones Index in 1933, i.e. $5,750 (index 60), it would be worth $929,583 (index 9700) today. 3 times both the house and the gold in your example.
Daniel,
The business proposition was my attempt at humor.
Secondly, the “multiples of 3” scenario is only one way to pay for your gold/silver acquisition. The other part of the equation is your retail sales(totally ignored in your example), which is the lion’s share of my commissions right now. Without healthy retail sales any MLM is going to fail and I’m not interested. Also, think about what we’re talking about. We’re talking about gold and silver…not shampoo, not a vitamin, not soap…not something that is consumed but something that is accumulated and we’re talking about selling it in a profitable manner.
The point of the example of the house wasn’t when it was bought and the use of it it was the purchasing power of the dollar over time. As you know there are cycles in everything including economics and there are times to be accumulating precious metals and there are times to be liquidating them. I happen to believe we are in a time when it is extremely prudent to be out of debt and in tangible assets in general and be accumulating precious metals in particular(not exclusively but it should be a part of your holdings).
I’m not saying that gold should be purchased at the exclusion of other investments but I do subscribe to the perspective that the stock market is more like a Vegas crap shoot for most people. To be sure many have made a lot of money trading stocks but it must be left to professionals. {Besides, what makes Google worth $500+??}
In my opinion the reason that gold and silver are important to have is that we are at a time in history where currencies (the dollar in particular) are being inflated to such a degree that it is unsustainable…plain and simple. It’s really not more complicated than that. Not long ago we were the world largest creditor nation and now we are the world largest debtor nation and the hole is only being dug deeper with ‘quantitative easing’ and trying to pay back debt with cheaper dollars. As a nation we are able to keep afloat because of a certain amount of clout and our ability to borrow but in my opinion ever increasing debt of the magnitude which we now see is unsustainable. Debt matters and has consequences just like we found out last year.
I think the above answers the question reasonable well why I am a proponent of buying gold. It is many things but one role it plays well is currency crisis protection and/or as an inflation hedge. Nobody know exactly how things will play out but I think it’s easier to look down the road and see that the dollars days are number as the world reserve currency than it is to look down the road and see a hip replacement happening.
The problem as I see with your term deposits and your PS example is the value of the dollar. You may have nearly a million of them but they don’t have the same buying power that they did in 1933. That is the hidden insidiousness of inflation and most people don’t even know its happening or that it’s being done on purpose. Gold can still buy the same thing. Granted this is contrarian thinking but I believe it be correct and why you need to own some of it. So I don’t agree that you’d be better off with the 4% p.a. as you’d need twice that just to break even when taking inflation into account.
The other facet of the “price” of gold is that (and this is controversial to some) I don’t believe we have a market free of manipulation where gold is concerned. There is much that can be read on this subject but I’ll just summarize my view by saying that the price of gold would be much higher today if central banks w/complicit investment banks were not doing everything they can do to suppress the price by selling/lending {or whatever they want to call it} their gold onto the market. The problem is they are running out of golden bullets and have become net buyers now. So, as you can guess, in my view the price of gold will be going much higher.
Again, you can have your other investments but you’d better have some gold and silver too b/c the others can become vaporous very quickly. In my opinion, most people are truly not in a position to buy precious metals in big chunks but they can buy in smaller quantities. So, I recommend to folks in this position start the discipline of buying a little each month. YOUnique offers a way to do that. There are others ways… just like there are choices between insurance policies.
To address your pyramid scenario I would just point out that unlike Madoff’s scheme it doesn’t take adding more and more people to the business to make things work thus it is not a pyramid. You may choose to only grow so much and be satisfied but that makes no sense when there is more potential. But let’s say that suddenly there was a massive run on physical gold and supply suddenly dried up and YOUnique stopped. Would anyone be left hanging? Let’s see…what are we left holding? Oh shucks…I’m left holding gold and silver {which I might add in this scenario would be skyrocketing in price}. To me that’s the beauty of a savings based business where you are acquiring more of something each month versus a consumption based business (vitamins, soap, drinks).
You ask an interesting question I hadn’t thought of as far as how many originator lines there are. I’ll ask that question.
Daniel,
http://gata.org/node/7887
Adrian Douglas: The explosive dynamics of the gold and silver markets.
This may answer more completely your scenarios question about owning gold.
Lisa, I like your humour!
Now here is a real proposition. How about you save every month 1/10 shekel and I will put the same amount in a CMT. Then after a time frame that you decide, hopefully within my life span, we convert it all to a currency that you decide. The person with the least has to give up its own holding to the other person and match the holding that the other person achieved. E.g. at the end of the period I have $10,000 and you have $15,000. I will give you my $10,000 and match your $15,000 on top of it. I.e. you walk away with $40,000 and vice versa. I will even pay for the legal costs. How about that!
I had a read of your link. I read the same thing 20 years ago! It is very interesting reading, I do agree! However, why doesn’t it happen? Adrian Douglas wrote in 2005 “ABANDON SHIP” (I read that 20 years ago as well) , i.e. the fiat money system will fail but it still doesn’t happen. The reason why?….. no market economy can afford it to happen! We have gone through multiple crisis for the last 80 years or so and nothing sinks the boat, the thing is that all economies are so entangled with each other that nobody can afford it to break down, regardless of how flawed the system is or isn’t. The discussion becomes more philosophical than anything else. It is a little bit like when I was involved with “lunatic” offshore people. They were trying to beat the legal systems in one way or another, and I must say it really is entertaining reading. Then, the miracle happened, a magistrates court in Adelaide, I believe it was, was shown to not have been setup in accordance with the law and constitution effectively giving the last 4 years of sentencing a path for appeal and invalidation of all convictions. They had a feast and finally they could overturn the legal system and it was nothing the Australian government could do about it. Well, what happens, the parliament the very next day introduces new legislation that in retrospect validates the court and therefore all of its cases. Done! I guess we do agree that governments can do anything at any time, however my point is that they will also do so to maintain the financial stability of its country and with its relationships with other nations and economies. The great collapse or crisis is possibly a reality in an economy in disarray and with little or no international trading, such as Zimbabwe, but this collapse has little or no effect on anybody else, just a tragedy for the population.
Cheers – Daniel
PS. I have never claimed JWS to be a ponzi, only a pyramid.
Your proposal is a good one I think especially for the next 5 to 10 years. Though I could be a bit at a disadvantage for awhile…that is until we could achieve a free market price for gold.
Yes, we have gone through multiple crisis…in fact as the pendulum swings back and forth from fear to greed and back again the only place there probably isn’t much crisis is through the middle. I think you make a good case for why a total meltdown or failure of our fiat currency hasn’t happened as of today is for reasons like you stated…our economies are so entangled. We have very sophisticated financial mechanisms of manipulation that have been able to kick the can down the road and I would argue that that’s all it is…kicking the problem down the road. Also, at times we get some better leadership in different offices and things do get better.
My premise is that debt matters and the levels we are at and headed to are unsustainable. I don’t know at what point that is but we are probably going to find out. It is taking a large amount of our GDP right now just to pay the interest on our national debt. Yes, the strength and clout of the US has gotten us a long way(thankfully) but it is not guarantee. You have to get a much longer perspective than 80 years or you are likely doomed to fulfill the saying, “What we learn from history is that we don’t learn from history”. I’ve seen an exhaustive list of fiat currencies and there is not one that hasn’t failed for one reason or another. We are actually only at the average lifespan of a fiat currency.
We very much differ on governments maintaining the financial stability of it country and its relationships with other nations. There are way too many foolish people doing foolish things with the power they wield in Washington today(for example, we’re going to spend more money for more healthcare services and the price is going to go down!…that’s like saying 2+2=3). I would submit that it is the few rather than the many who look out for the long term health of our country. Far too many get elected or appointed and self-interest overtakes wisdom. I very much disagree that the Fed(but then you could say they are not the government and you would be right) is looking out for the best interest of the country. This secretive, extremely powerful, unaccountable, unelected group of men have a great degree of responsibility for the predicaments that our economy is in today. I would argue that they have helped create the bubbles rather than smooth out the road.
The type of thinking that says we are too important or too big for our ship to sink reminds me of a certain Cunard ship. So, yes, there have been a few warning for what seems like a long time that all is not well and are scoffed at by naysayers. I wish the naysayers were right and we are just too important to fail but there are many leaders in this world who don’t care what we bring to the table they just want to be the big cheese and they’ll cut off their nose to spite their face.
I think we could go on and on but the point I’ve been trying to make is what Greenspan himself said before he became Fed Chairman and I’ll repeat. “In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. … This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists’ tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists’ antagonism toward the gold standard.”
Hold everything in $ currency if you want to but if you do you must accept that you are doing so at great risk. Inflation is not something to dismiss even though you can’t feel it on a moment by moment basis. It must be taken very seriously and one way to hedge against it is through owning physical gold. YOUnique can help you do that. If you don’t want to buy from us that’s OK but I would get some somewhere soon because our little green pieces of paper are taking a beating and it’s going to take more and more of them to buy some. Just think, in 1920 one dollar would buy 1/20th of an ounce of gold today it will buy all of 1/1068th of an ounce. Wow, it’s really held its value well!
I’ll pass on this article by Alex Stanczyk and 14 reason to own gold
Gold Passes $1058 on Asian Market
October 8th, 2009
At approx 2am GMT-5 gold passed $1058 per troy ounce, another all time high in nominal terms.
Silver was a touch shy of $17.90 per troy ounce this morning.
Fundamentals have still not changed. We could see pullbacks as a normal part of an upward trend, but unless underlying fundamentals change, my long term outlook is of course the same.
Those fundamentals are:
1. Downward pressure on the USD from Quantitative Easing
2. Downward pressure on the USD from the carry trade (The USD is the new favorite target)
3. Downward pressure on the USD for additional bailouts as firms are salvaged from losses in ALT-A and ARM resets
4. Downward pressure on the USD as foreign countries diversify out of dollars into other currencies
5. Upward buying pressure on gold from Central Banks
6. Upward buying pressure on gold from the Chinese Government
7. Upward buying pressure on gold from Chinese Citizens
8. Upward buying pressure on gold from retail investors globally
9. A continually declining production capacity in gold mines – no new mines being brought online due to low prices of gold making exploration investment less common
10. Gold ETF’s and Institutions buying tremendous amounts of gold, with no sign of letting up
11. Largest gold mining companies in the world are closing out their hedge books (buying pressure)
12. Continued concern over inflation causing positive sentiment towards gold
13. Competitive Devaluation will ensure the cycle from fiat to tangible assets continues
14. Common sentiment – Contrarian Investing basics – The common man still has no idea gold and silver are a good investment – when you see Bill Murphy from GATA as a regular guest on CNBC, you know the fundamentals are shifting.
Hi
Would you please let me know if the following four sites are one?
1. Josephwealthsystems.com
2. Youniquewealth.com
3. Youniquegoldmind.com
4. Youniquerichdad.com
I’m confused. all of them have the same principles but the site differs. Could someone clarify this?
regards
Beena
beena,
Joseph Wealth Systems is now YOUnique Wealth. The name transition was earlier this year. The other site domain names take you to the website of those who are independent business owners of YOUnique. You can tell the name of person in the upper right hand corner of the replicatable sites under Host Business Owner Details. For example my website is http://www.youniquewealth.com/gold4u. To find out more about the business owner you can click on About Me.
Hope this helps.
Thanks Lisa.
the discussions mentioned above were very interesting but i would like to know more.
Is this legal? i understand that when you want to join in, you need to pay $ 154/= and then a monthly debit to credit card. Is this mandatory to autosave?
For MLM, do one need to get only three people and then let those people work for you? What r ur chances in getting these three people during these difficult times? If you need to opt out of this scheme can you do it anytime? Are the shekels shipped only to US or internationally as well?
Thanks
beena,
A couple of things I would suggest.
We have weekly live webinars that explain both our business and products. To find out when the next one is go to my website http://www.youniquewealth.com/gold4u and on the lower right had side you’ll see a link to webinars.
Also, it will be easier to communicate if you click on Contact Your Host in the upper right hand corner and we can exchange contact information. I’d be happy to explain our unique and timely company. We are truly a company build to thrive in and not just survive trying economic times.
Hi,
Here are 2 great articles that put a good perspective in regards to gold.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/gold-price-a-bubble-waiting-to-pop-20100628-zca1.html
http://www.smh.com.au/business/theres-more-gold-where-that-came-from-20091215-kt3q.html
Cheers
You learn more from most of the comments than you do from the article. Contrary to what most people realize gold and especially silver are still still undervalued.
For a differing view http://www.uncommonwisdomdaily.com/two-mandatory-investments-9648?FIELD9=1 Here is an excerpt
Why Gold Is Real Money
If I sound like a die-hard gold bug, I’m not.
In fact, I was bearish gold for most of the 1980s and 90s, and only turned bullish again in 2000.
And when gold reaches its peak according to its cycles — with the top likely coming in 2012 — I will probably turn bearish again on the yellow metal.
But not until then. As long as the financial crisis continues as it is …
As long as paper money is in question and doubt …
As long as the leaders in the U.S. and Europe continue to deny that the world needs a new monetary system … I will be bullish gold.
After all, gold is real money.
Unlike stocks or bonds, gold has no debts, no earnings, no boards of directors, no funny accounting statements, and no obligations to anyone but itself.
Gold is the purest investment in the world. While paper money can be printed or devalued at will, as is happening now ad infinitum, the same cannot be said for gold.
Gold is the purest investment in the world.
Gold is the purest investment in the world.
That’s also why, in fact, the central banks of countries that do have money … that do have decent balance sheets … or strong assets like oil … are smart enough to be buying gold. India. Russia. China. Saudi Arabia. Singapore. And more.
I like to focus on the monetary aspects of gold, because in the end, that’s what really drives the gold market. (Psychology and social mood drive ALL markets. Everything else is secondary.)
When investors do not have confidence in government, they love gold. When they do have confidence in government, paper money will suffice.
But there’s also no denying the supply and demand picture for gold. It’s supportive of the fact that so many investors do not trust government anymore, there’s simply not enough gold to go around.
Keep in mind that all the gold that’s ever been mined in the history of the world (about 165,000 metric tons) can fit into a cube measuring only 62.3 feet on each side.
Meanwhile, gold production continues to decline. Just one example: Over the last 10 years, gold production in South Africa has plummeted more than 50%.
So, the way I see it, plunging production, rising demand — and a severe lack of investor confidence all over the world in the euro and the dollar …
Add up to one thing: Much higher gold prices to come. And it’s why, for me, gold is still the most important asset to own going forward.
Hi Lisa, (Mostly directed to you, but not all)
I do agree that gold may be part of an investment strategy. However, as I have previously showed is that there are many other ways than to buy Shekels, that are much more profitable. My main issue is that Shekels are way over priced. If you are looking at a business (ie the MLM part ), then it isn’t the gold that you buy that is the issue, it is then another ballgame.
1) So far the references to articles or comments you have made are from people who have a vested interest in people buying their gold, or their internet newsletter etc…. Exception was the quote from Alan Greenspan, which by the way was taken out of context. Now these people may be correct, but it is important to understand where they are coming from. A car sales person wants to sell cars, when you talk to him he will push any angle whatsoever to sell his cars. If you think a car sales guy is a friendly, cuddly, and has your interest in mind type of guy that just wants you to buy the best car in the world…. then think again.
2) Let’s assume we make the world economies gold backed. So we can effectively get rid of all currencies for the discussion. there is 163,000 tons of gold around. Divide this with the worlds population (I will use 6 billion) and we get about 27 grams per person. I believe the troy ounce used for gold is about 31 grams. So, in short every person in the world has 1 ounce on average. Now I want to increase my wealth to 2 ounces. Since the gold reserve cannot produce anything more, somebody (or many) will loose some gold for me to get my extra ounce. How can they build their wealth? The gold mining companies are really now the banks in the world so to speak. How will they realise the gold that they mine and spread it in the world? Rich will get richer and poor will get poorer, stagnation of developments, etc… etc… will be the result, eventually you will have anarchy and we better have guns, ammunition and tinned tomatoes next to our gold bars to have a chance.
3) Again, this fatalistic view of the world economy is similar to faith. The apostles of Jesus where sure that he would come back before the end of their lives. Here we are about 2,000 years later and we have “no show”. Let’s assume it will happen, world economies go under, hyperinflation, and all of the doomsday issues that are painted. You sit there with a shekel, and then what? You ask your neighbour for a tomato in exchange for a shekel and he says, “why do I want a Shekel?” “But it is gold”, you answer. He will most likely say that he wants to keep his tomato to feed his family and use the seeds to plant more tomatoes.
So, to the contrary of fatalistic gold pushers, gold can only be effective in a stable economic climate. It should be bought at market price, not at inflated prices, just like stocks or houses. So when an opportunity arises, it can be bought, and then sold and realised with a profit.
If anybody truly believes in economic collapse then they should become a farmer and make sure they have lots of guns.
Cheers – Daniel
Just a few thoughts about Daniel’s posts.
There are other ways to buy small pieces of physical gold, but all of them come at a considerable premium over spot price. The smaller the piece the larger the proportional price to spot. The premium includes freight charges, minting costs, advertising etc.
Here’s real world example using YOUnique shekels. Since January 2008, I have steadily accumulated 2.85gm (mostly) gold pieces each month. Up to now I have paid NZ $6640.00 for these (at the YWS cost). They are now worth NZ $8372 (at spot + 5%, the YWS buy-back price). This is an increase of 26% over 2 ½ years.
This is great as the price of these pieces in NZ dollars is going up. But is it? Or has the value of my wealth remainded the same and the NZ dollar decreased. That means I have preserved a bit of my wealth, while other NZers are less wealthy, although most of them don’t know it yet.
So a good way to purchase gold is steady accumulation over time. I have done some studies on the value of YWS gold pieces and they actually come out quite well as compared to other sellers of similar size. See the figures at http://www.younique.co.nz
I would also say that buying larger amounts of bullion and having it spread geographically is also a wise idea. I lso agree with having a broad range of investments although I would lean more to commodities (energy, oil, food, metals etc)
Daniel,
Well at least we “may” agree on something! Have you done any price comparisons between coins of similar weight, purity, release number, etc? Don’t forget to look at only non-legal tender coins. I just spend a considerable amount of time doing that since I hadn’t done it for awhile (it’s not that easy to find them). What I found is that we were right in the ball park (and our coins have the added benefit of the reputation of Argor-Heraeus,one of only 5 LBMA referee mints in the world).
1) I purposely gave you an article/newsletter from someone not selling precious metals and who’s particular email update is absolutely free. I’d suggest to anyone his Thursday video updates. They are free and worth following…then make up your own mind on his forecasts. I guess you’ll have to tell me which Greenspan quote you are referring to (though I think I remember) and how you feel it was taken out of context. I don’t doubt there are those out there with the purpose of capitalizing on the vulnerable/uneducated “car” shopper and looking to push their gold/silver from any angle. Does that mean that everyone is? I think getting more familiar with YOUnique and those that run the company might be helpful to you in this respect.
2) You are very close in your gold:population ratio. Historically, there has been pretty close to one ounce of gold per person above ground. Today it is actually closer to .79 ounces. You are correct in that for every ounce a person owns it effectively cuts out the opportunity for someone else to get some. That is the reality…there’s no way to get around it and it is one reason to get some now. Even many poor in India have more gold than most Americans.
3) Are you saying you have faith in paper? You do know don’t you that every piece of paper money in your wallet and bank account is backed by debt? You seem to put preparing for an uncertain future and the possibility of high to hyperinflation in the “fatalistic” category. Today we still have the opportunity to store part of the value of our labor in a non-inflatable tangible asset. The problem really is not that the price of gold has gone up it’s that the value of our dollar has gone down. Gold has historically been a very good store of value. It will buy the same thing today that it did generations ago. The same thing cannot be said for our dollar or any other currency. All paper currencies are bobbing but sinking ships of central banks, some are just sinking faster than others. By the way, if you sit there with gold or silver you will be able to buy anything you want if it’s for sale in your “doomsday” scenario. Gold has always been money (for many reasons that I won’t go into here)
I’m not sure where you got the idea that gold is only effective in a stable economic climate, it is just the opposite! One example among many in recent history is Zimbabwe…what was the only money that could buy anything? They were panning in the rivers for the tiniest amounts. Sure you can barter as well in this scenario if you have something someone else needs…even your tomatoes!
Your main thorn seems to be the price. As I’ve explained before if you want govt. issued coinage subject to currency and coinage acts then buy that! The US govt. may never make any claim on it. I’m not willing to take that chance so I buy privately minted coinage. I’m willing to pay a higher premium for that level of insurance. I’m more risk adverse than some. Even then it’s no 100% guarantee that they won’t try but it will be much much harder to make the case since they didn’t issue it. If you’re interested there’s some interesting correspondence between the Treasury and GATA in response to an inquiry about the confiscation of privately held gold and silver. You can read it and come to your own conclusions. http://www.gata.org/node/5606
So, contrary to what your ending conclusion is. I would encourage folks to start a regular monthly gold/silver savings program. If not with us then someone. The important aspect is to not spend everything you make, get out of debt and start saving more!
Hi Andrew,
I’m not sure how you came up with these numbers. If you have bought a shekel per month for 2.5 years you now have 30 shekels, as they are 1/10oz it means you have 3oz. So your purchase price of this gold is about $2,200/oz, this makes sense from the numbers I have. So you are telling me that YWS currently buys back at $2,790/oz? Seriously doubt it.
If this is correct, then what other companies buy-back a shekel at this level? If there is none, have you identified the risk that you have if something happens with YWS.
Daniel
After looking on the Younique website I will say that those prices and products are much more appealing than what I have been presented with in the past. A 30% margin is probably quite reasonable considering it is minted and in smaller sizes as Andrew did point out.
Daniel
Hi Daniel,
It’s the NZ$ value of each purchased at the time (at YWS prices) versus what I can now get for them at a very conservative value (spot plus 5%). Those are the figures. It’s the beauty of accumulation over time.
By the way, I have personally visited the Panama office of YOUnique/AFE. I was there on May12 this year. The four top managers there took 1 hour out of their time to meet with me. I raised many things with them and to be honest, I am impressed with their wisdom and setup.
Hi Andrew,
I still cannot workout your numbers. Are they based on a monthly savings program? If so, how much are you actually paying each month? Are you getting discounts from your downline? Are you excluding YOU$ that you can use for education, Etc… As always, nobody can give me a breakdown of why this is a good investment. You are so far the closest I have seen, I actually want to know more, but give me the true numbers!
Why did you need to visit their Panama office? That would have cost you $2,000+ which eroded any profit you have made so far, and probably for some time more.
BTW, if 4 top managers have time to meet you I would be concerned. Let’s assume I buy shares in Rio Tinto. Unless I am a major shareholder I wouldn’t even be able to meet their PA’s. Is your gold holding in YWS a major holding/interest? As you said little over $8,000 value….. In my simplistic view I would assume that 4 top managers would have better things to do, and if investing into a company/product I would expect them to do so.
Hi Daniel,
Firstly, I have re-worked the figures I gave you and have indeed made and error! My utmost apologies. It was not my intention to deceive, so I am hoping that my incorrect numbers above will not be an impediment to anyone’s journey to becoming a part of YOUnique.
What I had done is not use an incorrect exchange rate. I have now re-worked the figures by using the sale price of a 2.85gm shekel I sold 18 months ago to an independent buyer ( who I did not know via the NZ Trademe.co.nz website). I also looked on Trademe today and a 1/10th oz coin sold for $229 (so 2.85gm would be around $210).
So, in summary, we are around minus 20%. However, I don’t consider all the figures to be too important. It’s difficult to know what the market will pay for these. The amounts will differ with economic circumstances too. We have bought gold and silver as an insurance and a hedge, not with the intention of selling it on the current market. It wouldn’t be of any advantage to do this and it’s not why we have them. Remember, gold is the ultimate international money unit.
I find your thoughts on my trip intriguing. I’ll give you a brief explanation. We are friends with the CFO of Anglo-Far East, Simon Heapes and his wife. I was in the USA for business and decided to take my daughter with me intending to spend a week afterwards in Panama working in an orphanage there that AFE/YOUnique donate a considerable amount of time and financial resources to. Suffice to say we enjoyed our week there with the kids. Very fond memories.
As far as the four of the managers meeting with me, I too was surprised and felt very honoured to have them work through the questions I had. It was completely unexpected. I presumed I would talk with Simon on a more casual level. I think this shows the level of commitment they have to their people. By the way, Panama is one of the largest banking centres in the world, this is why the location is good for AFE/YOUnique.
At the end of the day only you can decide whether this business is for you and to make the leap or not. To be honest, most people do not understand the predicament they are in financially with their high debt levels. Pointing them to consider saving in gold and silver is a difficult one, but those who do see it get very enthused quickly and want to act immediately. YOUnique offers one method they can use to begin this savings habit.
If you are interested in buying gold and silver bullion in larger amounts through Anglo-Far East, then feel free to talk to me as I am also an Affiliate with them.
I hope my blunder above doesn’t cause you any undue concern.
Andrew,
Please share with us the many issues you raised and why you were impressed. I’m sure there are many readers waiting for your reply.
Andrew,
Lovely work with the orphanage! Everybody needs to do more with charities! I suspected that your visit to Panama was more than just a tourist trip. Good on ya!!!!!
Daniel,
Sorry, the meeting was private and business related. I was happy with the outcome. I left the meeting assured of the integrity of the management and administration.
Quod erat demonstrandum.
Carpe Diem.
Andrew,
1) You have confirmed that shekels are a negative investment, even though the gold price has gone up. This is something I have stated all along.
2) You have confirmed that to know about YWS/AFE you have to fly to Panama to get the info as the issues you raised are most likely the same as others. If not, why bring it up in our discussion?
3) I don’t mind buying gold. However, getting an offer from somebody who has his calculations 57% wrong doesn’t give me confidence. so …. no thanks!
QED (it means, “that which was to be demonstrated”) You have confirmed my concerns greatly, and I thank you!
PS. “Carpe Diem” is from a Latin poem of Horace. Commonly translated as “seize the day”. I don’t see the relevance in this discussion.
Daniel,
This confirms my fears about your intentions in this discussion. You lack understanding and most of all wisdom. I wish you well in your life’s endeavors. Remember, some people actually have your well-being in their thoughts and aren’t our to deceive.
Andrew,
Like everything, if it is the truth then it will stand strong. If it is belief, well, it is a gamble. My intentions are nothing but to bring out the real numbers in this, and so far…. “no show”, except for minus 20%. I must give it to you, you were close, but still no numbers.
Quote: “You lack understanding and most of all wisdom” End quote …. ouch!!! That hurt.
Firstly that is a personal attack, I have never personally attacked you, I have always addressed your reasoning not your persona.
Secondly, it is a judgement on somebody else , of whom you know very little about. I have never judged you. Just because I do not have your information, which supposedly is the gospel and by the way you cannot share, therefore “I lack understanding/wisdom”?
Thirdly, then you try to make it correct by stating there are some people thinking about my well-being! Who? Where? How?
I think you fear this discussion, not my intentions.
Daniel,
Nobody fears having a conversation with you it is just tedious at times.
The specifics you want are readily available in anyone’s gold shop. The catalog will tell you exactly what current prices are. Have you shopped around yet and done any price comparisons?
A couple of months ago I did some work for a customer who needed help in accumulating the cost and grams/oz of gold they had purchased in the past. So I did a little spread sheet for them to see how many gram/oz they had and how many dollars each one(1/10th oz) had cost them and gave a comparison to spot (which is not very helpful in reality, but gives somewhat of a measurement.)
In those particular 9 months they had accumulated 45.6 gram/1.608 oz and a cost in dollars (including shipping) of $2,099.60. Now here’s the tricky part…at today’s spot which I rounded to $1200 those grams would be valued at $1,930.19. This looks like a loss of $169.41. Except that just like you cannot buy a t-shirt for the price of cotton nobody can buy gold at the spot price. I love Life is Good t’s but it’s amazing that they cost $25 with a little simple artwork on them. I recently purchased t-shirts in bulk for a big fundraiser for $2 a piece and they were good shirts.
But back to the gold. In those particular 9 months, which began in Sept. 08 till today they have nearly made up the premium. Yes, gold is an investment but it must first be looked at as insurance. I pay hundreds of dollars a month for health insurance that I vary rarely use but on a couple of occasions it has paid off. For me gold and silver are the same thing but with more “pre-existing conditions” (ie. out of control national debt here and abroad, trillions in unfunded (off budget) liabilities, and a fiat currency system that is failing and many, if not most politicians more concerned with getting re-elected than serving the people.
I don’t buy financial insurance because I want economic crisis and turmoil so that my insurance policy pays off (end of the world, doomsday-er) any more than I buy flood insurance because I want a flood to come. I weight the factors that I see before me and make a value judgment.
I find out that the value of our dollar has decreased by 97% or so since our nation became slave to the credit issued by our Federal Reserve and I compare that with the centuries long history of gold’s reliability as a store of value and I choose the tangible asset.
As the commercial says, “What’s in your wallet’? Paper currency that buys less every year and is easily inflated by government thus destroying it’s value. It is so important to remember that it’s not the price of gold that has gone up so much (it buys the same thing today that it did 100 years ago). It is worse than that. It is that the value of the dollar that I traded my labor for has gone down and cannot buy as much as it once did.
If you want to buy less expensive gold and silver buy the govt. issued stuff. But just remember it comes with some risk. If you are willing to take that risk with an expensive item that’s your prerogative. I choose not to.
If you feel privately minted gold and silver is unnecessary and too expensive then this business is definitely not for you. Either way…hold on because we are still in the early stages of the “flight to quality”
Lisa
OK, my apologies for you thinking I was hurtful towards you. Not my intention. It was advice, but written words should always have great care when they are formed in this sort of environment. I needed to explain that comment in more detail.
I felt that your comments about my trip to Panama were offensive. I didn’t think I needed to justify the trip or explain the content of the meeting (which was private). I felt my integrity was questioned and judged. This was why I responded with those words.
OK, so let’s bring this back to a good coffee table discussion. Your knowledge on precious metals is good. One added thought is that I don’t primarily consider gold to be an investment. Silver is the investment in my book. My primary reason for owning gold it is for preservation of wealth. I do this mainly through AFE purchases and, to a lesser extent , through the YWS business. YWS is primarily a business and as such I am in it to make an income. What attracted me to it were the people involved, their intentions and the product. I would urge you to follow Lisa’s advice above and attend a webinar (if you haven’t) and also get back to me on your research about on the comparative costs for small pieces of gold out there in the marketplace.
Have you watched Chris Martenson’s “Crash Course”. It’s a great tool.
Andrew,
Apology accepted! And in addition, my sincere apology to you as well, not at all my intention. I like your wording “good coffee table discussion”!!!
I’m heading overseas, not Panama
so I might be offline for a week or so unless I have access and opportunity.
The JW gold I bought at the beginning of this discussion was bought at approx $1,600 (at the time spot at $1,000) per oz. Since then the spot gold price has increased more than 30%. Where do I sell my gold to realise my profit? The best I can get is about 85% of spot.
Insurance, excuse my incompetence, but I don’t understand. An insurance involves and insurer, insured and an agreement between the two. I see none of it within gold. Please explain further.
Your tedious friend,
Daniel
Why are you selling now??! For goodness sake we’ve only just begun the run up in precious metals. To turn it back into colored paper now would be crazy to say the least.
Insurance…buying a generator for a power outage in the event of a hurricane is an insurance policy. You are insuring that you will have at least some power. You are taking responsibility for yourself without a 3rd party getting involved. Gold and silver act the same way as paper currency drifts toward its true value, inflation escalates, etc.
I am looking into the JWS saving program. How is the program doing? Are the shekels saleable in the present market? How much to they bring? TIA.
Hi Gisle,
I have been involved with JWS (now YOUnique) for over 3 years. They have recently adjusted the amount that business owners in YOUnique pay to be involved. It is now US$100 per month which includes a $25 savings amount. This is a far better plan than the old one and I think making an income is a lot more realistic. For example, this month I have covered my monthly business cost and more.
In my view, the big plus with YOUnique is the savings plan. I firmly believe that dollar cost averaging your gold and silver purchases (ie buying a little regularly) is the best option for small investors. The best products to save in are the silver bars and the gold bars I think. I don’t consider that getting coins gives you any further leverage in physical gold than in getting plain gold bars (others may disagree).
The shekels are probably not going to be more saleable than the gold value plus a small premium. But using the dollar cost averaging process to buy means you get good value over time.