Christian "Health" Insurance?

[pochax]

Bob on his blog posted on Medi-Share here (Thanks, Bob!):
http://www.christianpf.com/christian...e-alternative/

This is an interesting concept that i had not heard about even though it's been around ~16 years. Bob lists some of the pros and cons on his blog but i was wondering what others here thought. On face value, it sounds like a wonderful, cost-effective way to be helping people by sharing and giving when brothers and sisters are in need. The Christian ethical standards required are an interesting way to simulate the underwriting process done by health insurance companies.

What do you think? Is this a good replacement for health insurance plans? Should it supplement a health insurance plan?

[CreationCare]

I looked into it briefly when i graduated college. Its not a good option for me as I have a significant number of health issues that require a committed insurance plan to be covered and at various times fairly frequent visits to various doctors or care options. For instance, I currently have 3-4 appointments of some kind a week. Their treating things that I've had so I dont think this plan would cover, but even if it did, if I ever tried to go back to 'regular' insurance I probably couldnt get coverage on anything.

[4jacks]

I thought it sounded pretty interesting

I'll be honest and say I don't plan on looking into it though.

I would honestly like to get off healthcare completely. We don't see "Western" doctors, and we don't take drugs. And face it, staying healthy and paying for your self is always cheaper than cost "sharing" with people you don't know.

I did like how it pretty much summed insurance up as cost sharing. Becuase that really is what insurance is, you cost share with a whole lot of people.

[matt]

It sure sounds interesting, I guess I would be disqualified since I occasionally smoke tobacco from a hookah.

Right now Anne's company pays 70% of our insurance so we'll probably stick with that. I like the concept though. It definitely sounds like something I'd look into if insurance wasn't provided by our jobs.

Bob mentioned the drunk driving accident person not being covered. While I can understand why; mercy is also pretty important biblical concept (where would we be without God's mercy?). I'd be interested in what other circumstances would not be covered. I'm guessing birth control pills probably aren't covered.

[pochax]

We don't see "Western" doctors, and we don't take drugs.

So do you (or would you) rely on faith healing if you or your wife got sick? Are you Christian Scientist?

[KrozFan]

Sounds like a program that would be worth looking into for people. It wouldn't be worth it for me and my wife because of pre-existing conditions and meds we're already on. I agree with CreationCare, I wonder what a traditional insurance company would say about pre-existing conditions if I dropped traditional insurance for Medi-Share and then went back. I also wonder how intoxicated the guy was that got turned down. Was he above the legal limit, or did he just have some alcohol in his system.

Matt, I took a quick look at a few of the things they don't cover and I didn't see birth control pills listed, however they did say they would not pay for a Vasectomy or Tubal Ligation. Not sure how that compares to tratitional insurance though.

[4jacks]

Are you Christian Scientist?

I had to check out the wiki article for "Christian Scientist". I was very unfamiliar with them. If the wiki article is a pretty accurate description of "Christian Scientist" then the answer is a definite No.

We are born again, protestant, bible thumping christians. We are members a southern Baptist church, and for the vast majority of issues, we agree with thier doctrine.

I am working on an Engineering Degree, I've taken up to Physics III and Calculus III. I am not against "Science" in any fashion. I don't believe Christianity and Science contradict each other in any fashion.

Once again, I'm just not familiar with "Christian Scientist" If that is a cult or something, then definitely not.

So do you (or would you) rely on faith healing if you or your wife got sick?

Once again, I'm a little unfamiliar with what you might be refering to as a "Faith Healing". I am thinking of something along the lines of Benny Hinn Smacking me on the forehead and declaring my healing. If that is what you mean, then once again the answer is a definite NO.

However like many Christian, we do PRAY when we get sick. And with our belief in God and our Pray comes a certain amount of FAITH.

So I'm guessing your next Question is: "So what do you DO, when you or your wife gets sick?"

Before I answer that, I just have to point out that in America and in Canada, it is SOO force fed down our throats, that you have to see Doctors in Lab Coats, and take prescription Drugs for Everything that is wrong with us. And when I talk about never doing that, people think I'm insane. That is not the case. Doctors in Lab coats are relatively new to the world, people got along just fine without them. And Prescription Drugs are VERY new, and very dangerous. Did you know over 200,000 people in the USA alone die from properly taking prescription medicine?

Basically. We believe that God designed our bodies inside and out. And God designed them to heal without all the harsh drugs.

So what do we do?

Well first, we play the preventitive card. We both see a great Chiropractor. That has been AMAZING. There is no doubt that we are much healthier today after about 9 months of see'ing him. Not to mention our spines are straighter. Both of our spines were messed up and we never knew. The before and after X rays are amazing. Of course we take a decent amount of Vitamins and supplements. And we exercise regularly. *Cough*she does i need to get my lazy butt to the gym*Cough* And we watch what we eat.

When we get a minor sickness we persue natural remedies. For every drug in the world there are tons of natural remedies with much less side effects. For example, I recently had a tooth infection, I have a fake tooth, it had problems, It got infected, really hurt, the Doctor (Dentist) wanted me to take an antiboitic. So I take my prescription down to the Natural Health Food Store, and talk to the knowledgable lady who we have grown to trust. And she recommends Olive Leaf. It's literally the leaf of an olive tree, crushed up in a capsule. It was $18 I coulda got it cheaper off the internet, but I bought it there, I was in pain, and wanted relief. The infection completely healed up in about 24 hours, without the negative effects of Antibotics. See olive leaf is a PROboitic. It works WITH your body, instead of just wiping out Everything, including your body. Sunburn we use Apple Cider Vinegar, it works better than over the counter stuff. I get hives sometimes, I use something called Jewelweed instead of taking Benydryl. or sometimes I'll take a Niacin, which is an all natural supplement. I could go on forever, but basically there is no need to ever take a pharmacutical drug.

What happens when something Major happens. Well if I fall off a ladder and break my neck, or if I get shot or something, then you can take me to an emergency room, and the doctors can do whatever they feel is necessary in order to save my life. I'm not against that. But primarily we just don't pursue western medicine.

Heather has done accupuncture. And if has really helped her a lot with her arms. But it's expensive, and you do have to be careful of the Eastern Religion that kind of seeps into the practice sometimes. We haven't found a great christian accupunturist. We do have a really awesome Christian Chiropractor. Who I honestly view as my primary care physician. But then we also have a great Christian Doctor who has an all natural approach. He is listed as our primary care.

There is a lot I didn't talk about. I'm not going to lecture anyone against the evils of western medicine on a financial forums. You guys do what you feel is best for your families.

[pochax]

i hear you, 4jacks, and i appreciate your candidness and openness about this topic...i imagine you often feel you have to explain yourself to those who are not familiar with your perspective.

let me preface what i say with the fact that i a western-medicine trained physician. that certainly biases me on many things, but i actually consider myself pretty open-minded to what is casually referred in western-medicine circles as "alternative medicine" or "alternative therapies". A whole slew of approaches to medicine are included in these terms - some are clearly helpful and some are clearely not, and unfortunately the bad ones give the good ones a bad rap. also, towards the end of my medical training, i actually considered getting trained in acupuncture as an adjunct to my clinical practice which was oncology since so many cancer patients deal with pain as a result of their disease.

Overall, i don't take any issue with your approach to health care and support you in that you have found a natural way to deal with sickness/illness that probably makes you healthier than most of the population. But i don't think that necessarily means one needs to demonize western medicine to take such an approach. A few of your comments as case-in-point:

I just have to point out that in America and in Canada, it is SOO force fed down our throats, that you have to see Doctors in Lab Coats, and take prescription Drugs for Everything that is wrong with us.

I'm not so sure it was crammed down people's throats so much as it's just what people grow up thinking because that's all they know. It's not like there's a concerted insidious plot for western medicine and the pharmaceutical industry to take over the world with their dogma.

Doctors in Lab coats are relatively new to the world, people got along just fine without them.

There have been doctors (physicians) for a long time. In fact, even in biblical times...remember, the apostle Luke was a physician.

And Prescription Drugs are VERY new, and very dangerous. Did you know over 200,000 people in the USA alone die from properly taking prescription medicine?

I would agree that they can be very dangerous. that is why they require a prescription so that they are not used improperly. Even when used properly, as you noted, they can still cause harm. Having said that, these harmful side effects are studied in clinical trials and summarized in such a way so that a relatively expert group of people charged with the safety of these drugs (the FDA) can review these and force companies to market them in such a way as to minimize the harm and maximize the benefit. Where did you get this figure of 200,000 die from properly taking prescription drugs? I don't discount that it's true but how do they know it was the drug that caused each death? Even if it is so, should you not also quote a figure for the number of lives SAVED by properly taking prescription drugs to be fair and balanced? I am sure that number is far more than 200,000.

Basically. We believe that God designed our bodies inside and out. And God designed them to heal without all the harsh drugs.

But sometimes they do not heal or they need help healing. God also designed those helping ways whether they be natural or man-made. God is the true inventor of all innovation whether it be the light bulb (via Thomas Edison), drugs, or dare, i say, even the iPhone. Sinful man can indeed corrupt and distort of good use of these inventions, but they are all within God's great design.

I could go on forever, but basically there is no need to ever take a pharmacutical drug

That is a strong statement to make. I can tell you in oncology there are a million natural remedies used to fight cancer. None of them have proven to consistently work whereas there are a few drugs capable of completely curing some cancers (eg. imatinib for CML). I stay open-minded to the fact there still could be some natural remedies that will be shown to work, but it has not happened yet.

Again, to summarize, i respect your approach to health care and it sounds like you have a great understanding of it in both its strengths and limitations. And while i readily admit that western medicine has its faults, i wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater to say it hasn't contributed greatly to extending the lives and improving the quality of lives for a great number of people (there's probably a litany of propaganda material on both sides). I don't think the Bible discounts western medicine (or eastern or southern or northern medicine, for that matter) nor does it endorse it. It is an instrument potentially for good (when used in God's design) and evil (when distorted by man's sinful nature).

[4jacks]

I didn't know you were a Doctor, Pochax, I certainly didn't mean to discount your good intentions to help people.

I just have to point out that in America and in Canada, it is SOO force fed down our throats, that you have to see Doctors in Lab Coats, and take prescription Drugs for Everything that is wrong with us.

I'm not so sure it was crammed down people's throats so much as it's just what people grow up thinking because that's all they know.

Well how did it become all that they know? At some point in History we Switched to this idea that Drugs were the only thing that work to help sick people.

I attribute a lot of it to Direct to consumer Advertising. I dare you to watch two hours of any television without seeing an ad for a prescription medicine. Or read any 20 pages in any magazine. lol It impossible. America is 5% of the world population, yet we consume something around 40% of the world's drugs. Yet we are so unhealthly.

It's not like there's a concerted insidious plot for western medicine and the pharmaceutical industry to take over the world with their dogma.

The pharmaceutical industry is SELLING good intentions. And they are making a KILLING. Everyone high up in the FDA has worked for pharmaceutical companies in the past, and there have been many documented cases of them leaving and getting extremely high paying jobs with pharmaceutical companies after leaving the FDA. It really is a huge scandal, and no one cares.

Doctors in Lab coats are relatively new to the world, people got along just fine without them.

There have been doctors (physicians) for a long time. In fact, even in biblical times...remember, the apostle Luke was a physician.

The intention of my statement was to imply Western Medicine. That's why I said "In Lab Coats"

And Prescription Drugs are VERY new, and very dangerous. Did you know over 200,000 people in the USA alone die from properly taking prescription medicine?

Where did you get this figure of 200,000 die from properly taking prescription drugs?

Just Google "Third Largest Cause of Death"

Even if it is so, should you not also quote a figure for the number of lives SAVED by properly taking prescription drugs to be fair and balanced? I am sure that number is far more than 200,000.

What I am about to say is largely biased on my own personal experience. But I honestly believe that with the exception of Emergency Care, that prescription drugs have not saved a Single Life. I do not believe that one single person has benefitted from prescription drugs, for ANY illness, moreso than they would have, if they had been properly treated with a natural alternative.

I don't have surveys or facts. But I spent 28 years going to western doctors, taking prescription drugs, for everything wrong with me. And I can honestly say, I have never been HELPED. I can also honestly say that not one of those doctors has listened to me or gave a rat's butt about me or my health. I was herded into the cold waiting room, I was stripped and stuck on a table, I saw the doctor for 5 minutes, I got a prescription, and I went home and suffered through my ailment and my prescription side effects.

I have seen the light and I am DONE. I will never go back to a western doctor. (Unless it's an emergency)

I encourage everyone to NOT listen to my testimony, but to think about their own, and look in to alternative treatments on their own.

That being said, as you said, there is a lot of bad mixed in with the good. And it's hard to find the right treatment for a lot of things. If you are a normal person facing an ailment. You can spend a lot of hours trying to find a decent alternative medicine doctor, or two minutes finding a lab coat. You can go to an alternative doctor and be told, that it might take some time to find the right treatment. The lab coat will assuredly tell you in five minutes that he's got the pill or surgery that you need.

Basically. We believe that God designed our bodies inside and out. And God designed them to heal without all the harsh drugs.

But sometimes they do not heal or they need help healing.

I agree that is why we have natural remedies and alternative treatments =)

Sinful man can indeed corrupt and distort of good use of these inventions, but they are all within God's great design.

I agree, chemicals should be used to kill bugs and strip paint off the deck. Those are good uses of chemical innovation.

I could go on forever, but basically there is no need to ever take a pharmacutical drug

That is a strong statement to make.

I stand by it.

I can tell you in oncology there are a million natural remedies used to fight cancer. None of them have proven to consistently work whereas there are a few drugs capable of completely curing some cancers (eg. imatinib for CML). I stay open-minded to the fact there still could be some natural remedies that will be shown to work, but it has not happened yet.

That is a strong statement also. You can tell us that none of the natural remedies work to help cancer? Have you tested them all?

No of course not. You have read, what the FDA has put out about those natural remedies. That is all. You trust that those reports are done without too much bias, and are for the most part based in fact.

I on the other hand, trust the FDA about as far as I could throw their building. It just the money, follow the money. The FDA is just too corrupt for me to trust a word they say.

i wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater to say it hasn't contributed greatly to extending the lives and improving the quality of lives for a great number of people

I'm really not trying to throw the baby out with the bath water. I believe the baby is Emergency care. Like I said if I get shot, and the doctor what's to numb me up, cut me open, drug me to make my blood flow different or something, then I'm all for it.

Sometimes, something as serious as cancer, can be an emergency. I'm sure hearing that kind of news is an emergency to everyone who gets it. And finding a good alternative treatment specialist is almost impossible. So see'ing someone like yourself is a perfectly reasonable and sane thing.

I'm not trying to tell anyone else what to do. But I am firmly stating that I will personally never take another drug or see another western doctor. As long as I can help it.

(there's probably a litany of propaganda material on both sides).

Very true, to the point where it's a real shame, it's near impossible to find good information.

I don't think the Bible discounts western medicine (or eastern or southern or northern medicine, for that matter) nor does it endorse it. It is an instrument potentially for good (when used in God's design) and evil (when distorted by man's sinful nature).

I disagree, but I respect your opinion and beliefs, and you continue to do the best you can to help people to the best of your abilities. I'm sure you're a much nicer western doctor than I have ever met. And maybe if I had met you or someone like you before I discovered alternative medicines, then maybe I wouldn't hate western doctors so much.

But it's too late, I've gone to the "dark side" We have cookies, and I'm not coming back. =)

[KrozFan]

I attribute a lot of it to Direct to consumer Advertising. I dare you to watch two hours of any television without seeing an ad for a prescription medicine. Or read any 20 pages in any magazine. lol It impossible. America is 5% of the world population, yet we consume something around 40% of the world's drugs. Yet we are so unhealthly.

I never used to be a big fan of ads targeted towards the consumer. I thought it was bad for people to go into a doctor and ask for a specific drug. But now I've heard of a few stories of people that go to doctors and get no answer but spend some time on the internet and successfully diagnose themself. Most recently was the girl that was sick for eight years and ended up looking at her own insestinal tissue under a microscope and figured out she had Crohn's disease, http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/11...sis/index.html I'm starting to wonder if maybe it's not such a bad idea.

Pochax, as a doctor what do you think about marketing to consumers.

[matt]

Interesting discussion guys.

I'd never heard if using apple cider vinegar for sunburns, Anne and I used aloe and lavender essential oil on sunburns (or any burns really). We're big into essential oils and other natural remedies.

I wish we had a knowledgeable lady at the Natural Health Food Store to ask questions of.
I like how in Japan they work to fix ailments first by a change in diet.

The reason why most people's only experience (in the US) has been 'western' doctors and medicine is thanks to the AMA and their licensing scheme. It was probably created with good intentions to get rid of 'snake oil salesmen' but it is anti-competitive in nature and what it ended up doing is throwing out the baby with the bathwater and getting rid of alternative/natural medical practitioners, faith healers, and etc. Yes I believe in faith healing, no I'm not a Christian Scientist (that is a cult, IMO). If you believe in the bible then I think you have to believe in miraculous healing through the power of the Holy Spirit (what stops it from working is lack of faith on our part).

I don't discount western medicine, many of the drugs and chemicals are derived from natural sources. Aspirin, for example, was derived from willow bark. I like to be informed though and only use synthetic drugs as a last resort to fix a problem. I go and get a yearly check up from a doc in a white lab coat, though I'm not totally sure if I really get any benefit from it. I don't think he's ever told me anything I didn't already know...

[4jacks]

I attribute a lot of it to Direct to consumer Advertising. I dare you to watch two hours of any television without seeing an ad for a prescription medicine. Or read any 20 pages in any magazine. lol It impossible. America is 5% of the world population, yet we consume something around 40% of the world's drugs. Yet we are so unhealthly.

I never used to be a big fan of ads targeted towards the consumer. I thought it was bad for people to go into a doctor and ask for a specific drug. But now I've heard of a few stories of people that go to doctors and get no answer but spend some time on the internet and successfully diagnose themself. Most recently was the girl that was sick for eight years and ended up looking at her own insestinal tissue under a microscope and figured out she had Crohn's disease, http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/11...sis/index.html I'm starting to wonder if maybe it's not such a bad idea.

Pochax, as a doctor what do you think about marketing to consumers.

Kroz, that is a great story. I dont' think it has anything to do with Direct to Consumer Advertising though. It's more about, open information. I'm all for open information. I research everything that goes wrong with me, and anything my Dr thinks I might have. It's awesome she had access to a microscope and could spot abnormalities. Sounds like she was taking a class on that. So that is a little step above, DIY diagnosis.

Direct to consumer Advertising, is when a Drug company will advertise their drug directly to people, as it if were on the same level as a new toaster oven, or brand of soft drink. You see them on TV, and in magazines. These are the things that have 30 seconds of someone reading really fast at the end.

What was the drug that had the commercial of the old guy on the beach walking with his dog. He was talking about how now, after this drug, life is great and he’s going clam digging? The commercial didn’t even say what it was for really, it was very abstract. Lots of people went to their doctor and asked for it, and a lot of people died from taking it. Now they pulled it off the market.

[4jacks]

I'd never heard if using apple cider vinegar for sunburns, Anne and I used aloe and lavender essential oil on sunburns (or any burns really). We're big into essential oils and other natural remedies.

Aloe is a definite, we use that too. Haven't tried any essential oils, sound pricey. ACV is Cheap! It stings but it works good. Next time you get burnt try it on half of the sunburn. That's what I did, it worked great. One of my arms was in a lot of pain, and the other one was painless after 3-4 days. ACV also smells bad.

[pochax]

Pochax, as a doctor what do you think about marketing to consumers.

Hey Kroz,
as a doctor, i am a fan of consumer's being educated about health issues. i think the internet has allowed many people to understand their illnesses/diseases better so that the limited time they have to spend with an actual doctor face-to-face can be more productive with answering more detailed/important questions beyond mere "what do i have, doc, and can u explain it in plain english?". depending on the personality type of the individual, this can backfire. some people feel so empowered by the easy access to knowledge (not all of which is accurate on the internet) that they feel they know just as much, if not more, than the treating doctor. i would recommend to use the extra knowledge as a launching point of discussion/dialogue with their physician (eg. "i heard on the internet that if i take ginger, that will help me with my nausea with chemotherapy...do you think that's right, doc?"). When i used to be in clinical practice, I welcomed these discussions and have even learned some great things myself from them.

Back to the question, i think the ads are good in that they promote people to learn more and ask questions although i agree with 4jacks that they are usually very poor at giving real information . Those that come in "demanding" a certain medication often don't realize all the potential side effects or restrictions the drug has, but it does encourage them to ask. Which brings me to 4jacks' comment:

What was the drug that had the commercial of the old guy on the beach walking with his dog. He was talking about how now, after this drug, life is great and he’s going clam digging? The commercial didn’t even say what it was for really, it was very abstract.

The FDA heavily restricts what can be said by a drug commercial. In the old days, they couldn't say what the drug is for unless they were willing to go through all the side effects. The drug companies thought that to say in a 30-second spot that drug X helps prevent heart disease (for the first 5-seconds) and then spend the next 25-seconds listing off what can potentially happen to you (even though it is <0.000001% likely to happen) probably wasn't the best way to advertise. BUT they felt the need to get the name of their drug out there so that people would ask their docs what it was for and possibly find some matches (asking patient = possible prescription = $$$ in their pocket). Nowadays, you will see drug commercials that DO say what they are for and still take the risk of going through the major side effects (if they don't share the side effects, they will get in trouble with the FDA).

Let me now throw my disclaimer out that i work for a major pharmaceutical company doing clinical research with the company's drugs. I understand the public animosity about drug companies and won't get on any soapboxes to defend them here since that is not the purpose of this forum. Having said that, remember there are many sides to every story...the media often tends to portray one over the other.

[pochax]

The reason why most people's only experience (in the US) has been 'western' doctors and medicine is thanks to the AMA and their licensing scheme. It was probably created with good intentions to get rid of 'snake oil salesmen' but it is anti-competitive in nature and what it ended up doing is throwing out the baby with the bathwater and getting rid of alternative/natural medical practitioners, faith healers, and etc. Yes I believe in faith healing, no I'm not a Christian Scientist (that is a cult, IMO). If you believe in the bible then I think you have to believe in miraculous healing through the power of the Holy Spirit (what stops it from working is lack of faith on our part)

The basic tenet of western medicine is evidence-based medicine. if you can prove your hypothesis within the context of a well-controlled research study and that result seems reproducible, the medical community will typically accept the practice. Having said that, they will also require some concept or scientific explanation of why your hypothesis COULD be true (plausibility). That is where alternative medicines have come into question. The acupuncturists of the world very often get reproducible results which is why i am so open to it. But it is just so dag-gone hard to explain WHY it works. That is what scares off many scientists (and the masses they influence). There is not a biologically plausible theory as to why it works because the practice was developed in a culture that did not have the same scientific assumptions about anatomy/biology as Western medicine.
There once was a small study that looked at two groups of people in the hospital: those who were prayed-for and those who weren't. The prayed-for patients did better than the ones that were not. This study drew a lot of criticism, but at the heart of it was the scientific implausibility. Everyone on this forum knows that prayer is a powerful tool used by God to display His grace and power in this life. To us, it is a no brainer. To those in the scientific community, they need a reason why it works other than an invisible God who is sovereign over the universe working through a defined means of grace revealed in His Word.

[matt]

Haven't tried any essential oils, sound pricey. ACV is Cheap!

You can get essential oils from puritan's pride for fairly cheap. and you only need a few drops mixed with a carrier oil (like olive oil or grape seed oil) and rub it on the burn.

ACV also smells bad.

Try drinking it! It's really good for you so we mix a shot of it in a cup of water with a spoonful of local honey every day. (Consuming locally produced honey regularly helps with allergies.)

[4jacks]

The basic tenet of western medicine is evidence-based medicine. if you can prove your hypothesis within the context of a well-controlled research study and that result seems reproducible, the medical community will typically accept the practice.

And with enough money you can prove ANYTHING! I found one study where they proved sugar consumpution didn't make kids hyper, I'll have to look that up.

[4jacks]

Try drinking it! It's really good for you so we mix a shot of it in a cup of water with a spoonful of local honey every day. (Consuming locally produced honey regularly helps with allergies.)

I got Capsules !!
Found them at vitamin shope. they have powderized ACV in it, and even the capsules still stink, better than drinking it though