Tithing in the new testament

what the #bible says about #tithing in the new testamentAs long as I have been a Christian I can remember people arguing and debating about tithing. Some say it was only an Old Testament Law that doesn’t need to be followed as believers under the New Covenant. And some say that it is just a relevant to New Testament Christians as it was in the Old Covenant.

I recently wrote about my tithing experience and I’d like to offer my thoughts on tithing in the New Testament…

It isn’t a means of salvation

You can’t earn your way to Heaven by giving and you won’t be excluded from Heaven by your lack of giving.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Out of our Faith, our good works manifest. So, in my opinion, if someone truly understands how great of a gift they have been given, they will expend a lot of energy giving back.

Can you be blessed without tithing?

Some say you won’t be blessed if you don’t tithe. I kinda think this completely depends on the person and their maturity level as a Christian. You expect more from a 13 year old than a 5 year old – right? I don’t think God is any different, He knows where were are on our walk and will meet us where we are.

I was a Christian for a while before I started tithing and I think I was doing okay. I know some Christians who don’t tithe and seem to be very blessed. But, I don’t really think there is any getting around the fact that you will be MORE blessed if you tithe, than if you don’t.  And to be honest, giving 10% should just be a mile marker on our giving journey.  If we truly understand how much we have been given, we will spend our whole lives trying to give way beyond 10%.

The Bible says that there will ALWAYS be seedtime and harvest (Gen 8:22). What we sow, we will reap. If we give, it will be given back to us in good measure.  So the bottom line is that there is undoubtedly a blessing that comes to givers.

Luke 6:38 (NIV)

Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

God loves a cheerful giver

2 Corinthians 9:7 (NIV)

Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

God loves a cheerful giver, not under compulsion, if you aren’t giving with the right attitude, don’t waste your time… If you have a bad attitude about it and want to change it, just ask God for help. He will, I promise.

Tithing verses in the New Testament

There are a ton of verses about tithing in the Old Testament and a lot fewer in the New Testament. Actually, it is true that tithing isn’t talked about nearly as much in the New Testament as the Old Testament. Personally, I don’t believe that in anyway nullifies the value of it as a practice.

Under the New Covenant our salvation is not based upon our obedience to the 10 Commandments, but does that mean that we shouldn’t still follow them? Are they suddenly of no value? I think the same can be said of tithing. While you can debate all day long about whether or not it is a command for New Testament believers, it will still provide a blessing just like it did in the Old Covenant.

FMF brings up two great points about New Testament tithing…

1. Jesus endorsed the tithe

In Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 Jesus referred to tithing as something that should not be neglected

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.”

2. As New Testament believers we are called to a higher calling

Like it or not, we are living under the New Covenant and as a result, we have increased responsibilities in certain areas.

Luke 12:48 (NIV)

…From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

From FMF

“No longer are animal sacrifices necessary, but we are now to sacrifice our own lives and live for Christ, not ourselves. No longer is ‘an eye for an eye’ appropriate but we are to love our enemies and ‘turn the other cheek’. These are only two examples of heightened responsibilities Jesus taught His people. As such, I can only conclude that the same holds true with the tithe. While it used to be the requirement, it should now be the minimum.”

He said we could test Him

Do we have any better invitation that to actually test it out and see if it really works? Most of us who do tithe were probably in the same spot as the non-tithers and didn’t believe it ourselves, but we tried it out. Guess what, just like God promised, things are better after tithing! It really is like all the other areas of our walk with God – it requires FAITH. No it doesn’t make sense that when we give all this money away, things will actually be better – but I have found it to be true in my own life and others have as well.

Malachi 3:10 (NIV)

Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.

It is so much bigger than us

The much bigger issue here is that God’s Kingdom needs to be advanced!

Who does He use to do that? Us, the believers! If we aren’t funding and financing Kingdom activities, then who will? How are the lost going to be reached if we don’t send those to preach? (Romans 10:15)

We shouldn’t be getting all caught up in percentages and what we “have to do” according to the Bible – what we (as God’s people) need to do is to forget about our ambitions, goals, and motives and pick up God’s plan. We have been saved from eternal separation from God by grace! With all that we have been given, how can we do anything else but give all we have?

What if we all got our minds off of our own earthly bank accounts and focused on sowing into things that will have eternal value.

“I judge all things only by the price they shall gain in eternity.”

- John Wesley

I know it is difficult to comprehend, but eternity is a LONG TIME! We can either be doing things with our time and money that may benefit us for a few years down here, or we can see ourselves as the eternal beings that we are, get our priorities lined up with God’s, and starting giving in a way that will actually last for eternity!

Matthew 6:20 (NIV)

But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

When we give into our churches and into ministries that are reaching the world, we get to be included in their eternal reward. We are the BODY of Christ, we all have a part to play.

Ephesians 4:16

…from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

The amazing thing is that as we start getting our focus off of ourselves and on meeting the needs of others, we will have our needs taken care of. It is just the way God set it up. He is so good, isn’t He?

I would love to hear your comments – so please share them below. Disagreeing is absolutely okay, just please be civil. Deal?

 

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135 Comments
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  1. Good Post!

    Yes, there are more verses that mention the tithe in the old testament but so what? We should read the Bible as one unit.
    Furthermore, it should be pointed out that the tithe was never described as redemptive. Its stated purpose (See Malachi 3:10 and others) was for the support of God’s house (i.e. local church). This need did not end with Jesus’ sacrifice. If anything, this need grew exponentially.

    Make no mistake, the tithe is 10%. The word tithe literally means a 10th. This is the beginning of giving but not the end-all. There were other types of offerings that apply (i.e. so-called “alms” giving to the poor, support of missionaries, etc.). If you’re attending a local church — and you should! — you should give a tithe to that church otherwise, frankly, you’re a freeloader.

    Most important, God gave us His very best — Jesus — to us so that we can have redemption, adoption, and fellowship. Isn’t it a small thing to give him 10% (at least) when, in fact, he owns it all anyway?

    • It’s somewhat disturbing that anyone would say “…so what…” about something outlined and defined in the OT scriptures, and loosely apply it to modern, dead buildings.

      How many times do you see Abraham ever meeting up with Melchizedek after that one time? Where was Abraham’s own personal property when he met up with Melchizedek.

      There are many, many aspects to this discussion that you’ve cast aside with total indifference for any necessity for taking personal responsibility for what you believe. Your response seems to be a cookie-cut copy of historic and modern institutionalism, not something derived from any in-depth study of the scriptures.

      I’ve debated many an institutional “pastor” about this topic, and brought them to silence because they have no answers for all the false representations they’ve made for years from the scriptures. Such falsehoods simply don’t stand in the light of reality and TRUTH….things for which FAR too many people have no love.

  2. I just started tithing faithfully starting January 2008 (I’ve been a Christian since 1995). And while I haven’t had any wind falls or pay increases (in fact I feel as if I’m under-paid)and I’m in debt over my head, God had blessed me tremendously. There have been numerous layoffs at my job and I’ve been spared each and every time. All my bills are paid and I’ve never been without. I believe that that only reason God hasn’t blessed more is because my heart isn’t right. I’m still hoping money will save me when it’s Him who will save me. I’m in continual prayer about this and hope that you all will pray for me. I love the site! It has been a great blessing to me to read about everyone else success stories. It is very encouraging!

  3. Fixed expenses of

    housing/food
    student loan garnishment
    medical

    comprise 90 percent of my income

    Don’t see a lot of room for tithing until income/expenses improve.

    • A part of the body

      I know that your post is from 2008 and you may never see this post seeing as how it is almost six years later. I just read this article and your comment jumped out at me.

      I hope and pray that you are in a blessed walk of life. I hope that you had a peaceful almost 6 years since this post and that all is well. I hope that you no longer have student loan garnishment and that you have a wonderful, well paying career that is rewarding both monetary and emotionally. I do not know what your beliefs are… but I hope that your walk of life has shed truth and light on the obstacles in your path. I would like to tell something that I have learned in my walk of life. The job that I have is only mine because God allowed it to be. The car I drive, the home I live in are only available to me because I was blessed with them. Yes, I worked hard to earn them but my abilities and all that I know were not originally mine. I learned well from the people God placed in my life and gained skill from the obstacles placed before me by my Heavenly Father. I can’t claim my children as my own either. They were known by God before I ever thought of them. He loved them first and entrusted me to care for them. They were dependent on me and it is not my job to teach them to be independent, but rather… to teach them to be less dependent on me and more and more dependent on God. If you believe that we are the creation and that God is the creator… then, everything already belongs to God. He simply asks that we realize that we are nothing without Him. He doesn’t need us but he chose to love and keep us. I believe that God enjoys giving to us and blessing us, after all, we are his children. I don’t know if you have children or even want children but in my experience, when I see one of my kids doing a selfless act is raises my hope that they are gonna be okay. It fills me with joy to see that they understand how it feels to give. If your Heavenly Father looks at you or me and see our hearts what does that fill Him with. Our goal as Christians, (again I don’t know your beliefs) are to be more Christ like everyday and further the Kingdom of Heaven. If the Lord can give this much it should be our goal to give as well. Tithing is more that giving a mathematical percentage. It is devoting your time and energy to a cause. It is spending your resources to give back. It is giving your love and kindness to a stranger expecting nothing in return. God does more for us daily than we can even imagine, the very life we live is precious and priceless. Having said all of that I have to tell the other side of things too. It may seem like the words I just wrote are painting this perfect ideal life and I must not know hardships or pain. I would like to say that I have had my share of troubles and trials. I have shed tears and been sad and angry, and I have had moments of feeling like nothing is fair. I’m not going to share the details of these events on an internet post that I’m not even sure will be seen. I have been through every event up until now. Some trials I passed with flying colors while others I have had to crawl to the finish thinking that I can’t move one more inch. I have also failed and had to learn and move on so the next time I could pass. I hope your walk of life has been full of joy among the hard times. Look through a new pair of eyes and see the positive in all things. It is hard sometimes, that is the curse of man from the beginning. I don’t know why I wrote all of this other than to let one soul know that they are not alone. You may not ever lay eyes on this but someone else might. I truly hope and pray that all is well and that giving is something on your top priorities list. You are not alone, take a breath and seek the truth. :)

      • GUGU TENZA

        Thank you very much, may God give me wisdom as far as tithing is concerned. i have debts to settle and im struggling with my finances, please pray for me.

        Amen.

  4. CoolHappyGuy said:

    Make no mistake, the tithe is 10%.

    Okay, try this…

    A’s employer pays him $50K cash plus $10K non-cash fringes (e.g. health insurance).

    B’s employer pays him $60K cash without fringes. B buys his own (non-group) health insurance for $15K.

    C’s employer used to pay $50K cash plus $10K non-cash fringes, but changed the compensation to $60K cash without fringes.

    Questions:

    How much is A’s tithe?

    How much is B’s tithe?

    Did C’s tithe change when his employer changed the compensation?

  5. I believe that god speaks to your heart and lets you know what is best to do in your own personal situation. As a student, I don’t have a lot of cash but I would say that I still “tithe” – it’s just not all to the church, or all at once. I give about 5% of my income to the church through the collection plate, and spend another 5% on charitable giving that god encourages me to do (paying for someone else’s coffee in a time when they need my counsel, contributing to charities) or saving to contribute in goods to offer to the church rather than money (I have just bought a new couch for our prayer room). I think that for me, the Lord has just asked in my life to live in the spirit of giving… and who am I to argue? :)

  6. Hi Bob,
    I tell you this just as an illustration, not to toot my family’s horn. My husband and I have decided within our hearts to give, and to give generously. Much of that time, it equates to approximately 10% of our monthly income which we give to our church. However, more recently, we determined, after much prayer and discussion that our giving is better served by being given directly to those that are in need, within the Body, rather than simply our church as a building. We belong to a church that is a type of “mega” church (it serves over 2000 a week) and as such it has many administrative costs. It may be that they are not unreasonable for the size of our church, however, we do not feel that the bulk of our OFFERING (we don’t call it a tithe, unless we are sharing food, which the “tithe” was ALWAYS) is being given to the areas where it is most needed by giving it to the church. (Because so much of it goes to administrative needs.) So, it’s our opinion that the giving we do, should be generous and with a willing heart so we give to those that we know are in need. And in those circumstance, more often than not, we give well above the 10% which is the definition of “tithe.” So while I agree that we, as believers, are blessed by giving monetarily or even with our time or with food, etc. That giving in monetary ways is not the only way to OFFER ourselves and what we’ve been given, unto the Lord. That is just our opinion, but I thought I’d share. I will agree that giving to the Body, in whatever capacity we give, has been a blessing; a tremendous blessing, and I would also encourage others to do so, as the Holy Spirit leads them. Thanks for letting me share. Be blessed!

    • I totally agree with Shalene. My husband & I give to the church but not near as much as we once did. We now give to those in need – the poor of the poor. We give to those as an example the typhoon in the Phllippines. The Bible speaks of those who are poor and widowed more than anyone. I was Treasurer of my church and I was not in agreement of how monies were spent. I still support them but most of our monies go to those we know for certain are in need. We are not rich by any means, but giving is a blessing to us.

      • That’s what I do! I give to people in need when I see an opportunity, and they are many! Some times I end up giving 500% other times 2% . It doesn’t matter! Love your neighbor as yourself covers the whole law and the prophets! Galatians chapters 3 and 4 explain this perfectly! What are those pastors teaching? What are they doing? what are they reading it upside down?! Paul says it clearly ” let each one give as he determines in his own heart, not reluctantly or out of compulsion” Now, if a LAW makes me pay a tithe every week, how is this not out of compulsion?

        • Don Dean

          Simeon, that’s a very good question. That so-called “law”, which, by the way, doesn’t exist, demands tithing to church organizations with buildings and professional staffing. Many people continue towing the false line of the Bible supposedly teaching that there’s some sort of parallel between the OT temple and its priestoohd, and modern church organizations. Most people fail to realize, from their lack of Bible study, that the OT tithe never had one solitary thing to do with wages earned by wage earners, like most of us here today, and yet many people are beat over the head every week by being told that they are robbing God by NOT forking over a minimum of a tenth.

          Some preachers are more ‘nice’ in their approach to supporting them and their organization. Some never hammer the subject, and yet they also don’t teach the absolute truth about the OT tithe and modern giving. By their silence, they lie!

          It’s so very sad to watch people week in and week out place the importance of supporting facilities and staffing from which they reap direct benefit ABOVE the needs of the needy in their midst.

          The Lord will not ever say to any man or woman:

          “Blessed art thou for loving more thy dead buildings and professional staffing, by way of thy primary giving in support of brick, mortar, steel and sheet rock above the needs of the needy in thy midst. Thou hast been more faithful than most because thou hast put the needs of man-made organizations and real estate ahead of the needs of flesh and blood. Go unto thy great mansion I have prepared for thee, and look within upon all the play-pretties I have bestowed upon thee as reward for loving more those dead buildings than the destitute.”

          • Simeon Stepanianov

            Don, good morning. Galatians chapter 5 verses 1 through 15 settles it all. 😊

          • Don Dean

            Simeon,

            That’s a good section of scripture for the freedom we have in Christ Jesus as opposed to bondage to the Law or to tradition.

            One thing I would caution people about, however, is that liberty can never be used as an excuse for turning on its head God’s priorities in our giving. Liberty never trumps obedience.

            Although we are free to give or not give, when we do give, placing buildings and hirelings before and above the needs of people is still a strong indicator of some serious heart-issues that must be addressed within the body of believers. Mutual accountability is a powerful truth within scripture that most professing believers these days seem to dislike, and therefore reject.

            Don

  7. Tony Isaac

    We cannot justify paying tithes in this new dispensation because Abraham did so! There are many other things that Abraham did that we have decided not to follow because we label them as Old Testament practices. Everything Abraham did, he did before the law: animal sacrifice, circumcision, tithing (a one time event) etc. So we can well argue that animal sacrifice is compulsory for the church today because it had been a standard practice from the beginning. Abel did it, Noah did, Abraham did it, Isaac did it, Jacob did it and the list goes on. They definitely did it before the law was introduced. However, we do seem to forget that our relationship with God in this new dispensation is completely different from the relationship God had with Abraham.

    If we carefully consider the events surrounding Abraham’s encounter with Melchizedek, we will see how ignorant we are of God’s word. Abraham goes on a battle to rescue his relative, comes back victorious, meets a High Priest and decides to give a tenth of the recovered plunder to him and then proceeds to give the rest of the plunder to the King of Sodom. How does that singular act become binding on us today? We are just misapplying scriptures and drawing our own conclusions because they seem plausible. A noble act does not validate God’s word. We already have a hard time obeying clear-cut commands why then do we want make additional doctrines, which we know would be very difficult to obey? Talking about the consequences of noble deeds over simple obedience ask King Saul and Uzzah. King Saul was told to utterly destroy the Amalekites and everything they owned but he decided to spare the fat cattle to present as an offering to God. Note they were not going to eat them but to offer them as a burnt offering unto God, how noble! Was God pleased? No! What about Uzzah? His actions could be attributed to zeal for the things of God. The cart carrying the Ark of Covenant stumbled and he held onto the Ark to prevent it from falling and God struck him dead. He was only trying to help! But God does not need your help!

    Back to Abraham and Melchizedek. Abraham gave a tenth to Melchizedek and NOT to God! He would not have been worse off if he didn’t and he certainly was not better off when he did. He was already wealthy, he was already blessed and that did not come from him sowing seeds, paying tithes or giving offerings. It had nothing to with his actions. Some of his actions were indeed questionable and if works were the basis for God’s blessings upon his life, he definitely would not have been blessed. He was a liar and an adulterer. We do not see any portion of scripture that cites this singular act as a standard requirement of our faith in God. If it was, the apostles would have mentioned it! Ananais and Saphira would definitely not have died; they could have argued that it was the tithe of the sale of their property that they brought.

    Let us stop being Pharisees in our sharing of the Word, giving people heavy burdens that we know they cannot bear. Enough of this works led Christianity, where you beat your chest, take pride in tithing and then believing that God is obligated to bless you and provide all your needs as well as rebuke the devourer for your sake. That is works! You are relying on your works to save you and have definitely thrown faith out the window! Bible says God spoke to Abraham and Abraham believed God and that was credited to him as righteousness. That was why he was blessed and definitely not by giving a tenth to Melchizedek.

    Somebody would ask “but the bible definitely says that you have to pay your tithe so that God will rebuke the devourer for your sakes”. Does the bible truly say that? Why do we dive straight to Malachi 3: 10 without starting out at chapter 1 to gain a better understanding of what is being said? If you start reading from chapter one and verse one you will find out that this book was not a command for the church to come, it never even referenced Abraham’s act to Melchizedek as the reason for the warning. If you read it you will clearly see that the prophet was addressing the practice of priests in his time. The priests had started to do their own thing, offering up diseased animals as offerings unto God and they had also begin to default on their tithes, a command that was given to them by God with no bearing on Abraham’s act to Melchizedek. So how can we truthfully say that this is the reason why we are being saddled with this burden of tithe paying every month? Are we not then guilty of reviving the law? Are we then not claiming our blessings from God through our works instead of through faith?

    I am not advocating stinginess in the church, neither am I encouraging people not to give towards the work of God. I am only pointing out where we have erred. And err we have! How can giving ten percent of what you earn every month keep the devil at bay? If you advocate this doctrine, you are in effect saying that you do not need the sacrifice of Jesus and you are very capable of taking on the devil by yourself with your works. What a pity! Let the redeemed of the Lord say so! You cannot supplement your salvation by the works of your hand, you cannot be in right standing with God by doing good deeds in the name of putting God first or giving him the best. Those of the old dispensation could not get right with God by doing that so why do we think we can? God has made it easier for us, we do not have to live by a set of rules, and there are no dos and don’ts that we have to obey to make us right before Him. That is why Jesus came and with the death of Jesus, there had to be a change in the way we relate to God.

    The doctrine of tithe is very dishonest. It has no place in this present dispensation, the blood of Jesus has redeemed us and thus we should not trample his sacrifice under foot, treating it as an unholy thing by promoting salvation by works.

    Stop making people feel guilty for not paying tithe, God does not require it from us. We are supoose to give as we are led. And remember Jesus said on the cross “it is finished!” so do not think you can add to what He’s already done.

  8. Tony,
    thanks for taking the time to share your insight – I think the main point of confusion that we seem to be having is the difference between salvation and blessing. I am in complete agreement with you that tithing or any other work will not put us in a better place with God – Jesus did that for us.
    On the other hand there is no denying that there are biblical principles and laws that God has set in place. If we work with the principles we will enjoy the blessings of them, if we do not we won’t. It isn’t a matter of heaven or hell, but it does affect the level and depth of blessing that we will experience.

    Giving is just one of these laws God has set in place. BY humbling ourselves God exalts us, if we are merciful and truthful we find favor with people, if we get in God’s word and meditate on it we will experience true success – the list goes on and on…

    Also, I am not sure how you think this post makes people for guilty for not tithing. That in no way was my intention and after re-reading what I wrote, I don’t see anything that suggests that… Basically the message I was trying to point out was that regardless of how we feel about tithing, we should get our mind off ourselves and focused on giving to God’s plans. Personally, I have clear evidence in my life that I have been far more blessed since I started tithing than I was before. Maybe it is just a coincidence, but I don’t really think so…

  9. Child of the Most High God

    I really appreciated this article.

    Tithing is a matter of faith-point blank. Each person must determine in his or her heart do they really trust God? I hear those who do not tithe because of their financial issues that prevent them from tithing and I say what a shame. I wonder if those people really are good stewards of their finances in the first place. I have friends who tithe and the ones who do not believe in what the bible clearly states are more materialistic and have financial problems. I cannot change their view so I am amazed that they bother to tell me their struggles and they how never put two and two together. Trusting God regardless of the situation is not so easy at first because fear sets in and God does not move according to your fear but your faith. God has a way of placing us in His Hands especially when it is uncomfortable BUT GOD IS FAITHFUL! Please trust Him with His money. If you search your hearts, you will discover that you spend more than 10% on things that have no benefit at all.

    I also see how people purpose in their hearts to play with God by giving the money directly to the poor in place of tithing. God means what He says. If you do not believe me then read about Jonah and Saul, and Adam. Why can’t you pay your tithes and give to the poor? I do because I believe in giving and my family receives abundant blessings as a result. If you keep in mind that you are giving God His money and not some preacher then you will comprehend the lesson of tithing. The lesson is to trust Him and Him only to supply all your needs. God does not seem to move on our timetable and I believe that this is why people fear tithing. Joseph had a dream that his family would bow down to him but I wonder what would have happened to Joseph if he had given up when: his brothers threw him in the hole: or when they sold him into slavery; or when he went into prison. Joseph held on to God’s promise and finally he walked into the promise. Believe God!

    I speak form experience where it has hurt my flesh to tithe but my spirit is happy because I know that God has already made my way (Isaiah 43:19). In addition, keep your mind focused on God instead of the situation, remembering that Peter walked on water as he looked at Jesus but began to sink when he looked at the situation. I perceive that some of your try your best (worst) to beat God and as He told Paul, you cannot kick against the pricks. You may believe that you are correct but the Holy Ghost will lead you into Truth. Truth is a place where your head knowledge means nothing and there God gets the glory.

    I pray for you all that you review all scriptures concerning giving and you will see that giving is a faith and heart issue more so than about money. Additionally, you must be lead by the spirit in order to comprehend spiritual matters. Please seek the Lord and the true intentions concerning tithing and you will believe God.

    I wonder have you all considered why the first Christians sold all and shared their possessions amongst each other. I wonder if you do not believe in the tithe then why aren’t you preaching that message considering that it is a New Testament principle? I believe in giving more than the tithe because I love the Lord, I believe what He says, I believe in the principle of sowing and reaping, seedtime and harvest, and more important-obedience to our true and holy God. In review of the many scriptures on giving all throughout the bible, I can only conclude that God wants us to trust Him by giving. If your heart does not bear witness to giving the ten percent then that is your choice. No one can change your heart but I did want to present an occasion where you all may revisit your view on why tithing is such a sore issue for you. Why are you kicking against the prick?

  10. I understand giving finacially to advance the kingdom. However, this is where I am torn. My husband is in the trucking industry. He is a company driver. Needless to say, my salary is barely enough to support my three children (ages 8, 12, and 15) and myself. The 12 and 15 year old are both in band and I am owed $12k in child support by their father. I am currently enrolled in grad. school to obtain my 5 yr teaching license so that I can KEEP my job. A member of my church’s praise/worship team and choir, I was told that if I don’t start paying tithes I can’t participate on the praise/worship team and choir. I was also told that absences from Wed. night service or Thurs. night rehearsal due to school were unexcuseable. Am I to understand that GOD wants me to pay the 10% and my utilities be turned off, my car be repossessed, and we have no place to live? Don’t get me wrong, I give. However, I do not give 10%.

  11. Child of the Most High God

    Sonyia,
    Again, I must admonish you to trust God enough to know that He makes your ends meet financially. Most people I know who do not believe in tithing have financial problems. It troubles me that in this difficult time that there are so many people discouraging believers from tithing and we see the fruit. Please try God and see won’t He show you how faithful He is. I do also admonish you to study the scriptures on tithing as well as giving because if your heart and mind is not settled then you won’t tithe by faith and whatever is not of faith; it is sin. So please get your heart and spirit right before you tithe. Talk to others who tithe and they will attest to just how God makes the river in the desert.

    See, you are giving what you want to give and your finances are not blessed. You may ask why but the answer is because you are being disobedient. This may not be your intent so I am not saying this to be harsh but we err because we do not know the scripture. Websites like this discourage believers from walking in the total blessings of God. Although tithing pre-dates the law, Malachi mentions that God says to test Him and see that He opens up blessings that you cannot contain. I have not observed God making a promise similar anywhere else in the Bible. The blessings may not always be monetary blessings but He may bless you through other people. Please step out in faith. You will not be disappointed.

    Your church is only honoring biblical principles by ensuring that that all members obey the bible. The biblical church also would not allow a known fornicator or a person who sows seeds of discord to be in any position of ministry, which includes the choir. I applaud your church for taking such a bold stance for righteousness. I also see that although you have other responsibilities if you cannot be there for the choir then you are tying their hand. Perhaps when things slow down for you and you make a decision to tithe then you can return. I understand that you may have all the best intentions in the world and want to worship the Lord through singing, but the other members are present for rehearsal and if you cannot be there with them then it affects the entire choir.

    I pray for your strength in the Lord because you are reading my comments, you have many issues that are pressing, you have your church warning you, and you hear the comments on this website that appease your flesh. Ask the Holy Spirit to lead you into the truth. There is a part of you that knows God’s will and there is your situation staring you in the face. I pray that you listen to God and make the right decision. Partial obedience is disobedience. Additionally, read Matthew 23:23 and pay attention to what Jesus says about tithing. Life is not easy and the world has so many demands on our life but we must resolve to do thus saith the Lord. Man’s wisdom is foolishness so I pray that you will accept the truth and not faint.

    Change remember that Peter walked on water as he looked towards Jesus. When he took his eyes off of Him then he sank. Keep your eyes on Jesus through faith and you will do the impossible. Your money will be enough and your bills will be paid. Psalms 37 says that, “I was young and now I am old yet I have NEVER seen the righteous forsaken or his seed begging for bread. Are you righteous? DO you believe the word? Well, you are NOT forsaken. Trust Him and He will work these problems out for you.

  12. I completely agree with everything you have said. It is the truth that most Christians don’t seem to want to hear. Tithing is an old testament command to the Jews….not the gentile/Christians. And not only that..it had nothing to do with money…Tithing was all about food.
    What I have never understood is why do we go back to the law which was put to rest by the blood of the lamb on the cross, and try to revive it again. Why would anyone want to put themselves back under the law. And even more depressing is why would Christians want to follow a command given only to the Jews?
    My mother said to me many, many times as I was growing up and asking questions..” a person must rightly devide the word of truth”.
    Please dear Christians…read your bible, and ask God to open your heart to his truth….sometimes it is not what your church may preach, but its what God has to say to your heart that matters…learn to listen to that still small voice, and as the bible says…” you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free”. Peace to you all.

  13. Tony Isaac

    I think it is untrue to link non payment of tithe with financial problems. I see no evidence in the bible to support that. It is so ironic that we pentecostals that have the loudest voices do not even understand scriptures as we ought. We still seem to express the works mentality, trying to gain God’s favour by works and that is a pity. Child of the most high, don’t kid yourself! This doctrine of tithing distracts us from the truth. Looking at scriptures, 2 corinthians 8 : 12 talks about giving and it says the most important thing about giving is first of all having a willing mind. Then give according to that which you have not according to that which you do not have. Spirit led giving which the new testament advocates does not prescribe a ten percent. God owns all that you earn, he does not own just a ten percent and He would require any percentage as He sees fit.

    Sonya, I do feel your pain. I am in a similar predicament in my church because i do not believe in this ten percent business. I know how it feels not to have enough to get by and in all honesty can not squeeze out the MANDATORY ten percent from an already lean pocket. But all I can say is that Jesus died so that you would be liberated and He has said that He will not put more upon us that we can bear. Present your case before him and he will definitely make a way. He might lead you to a good financial advisor and even open doors of opportuinities to you. And do not forget, Jesus did not condemn the widow for the little she gave so do not feel judged or condemned.

    Nita, I totally agree with you, we christains want to revive the law!

    It is quite funny though, I discovered two things about tithing: one, in the bible, God never instructed that money should be tithed. Instead tithes where paid from the produce of the land, crops and livestock. Two, the jews that where originally given the instruction to tithe do not tithe today and I beleive they have a better understanding of tithing than we do. They do not tithe beacuse, when God gave the law to tithe, He gave specific guidelines. The tithe most only be collected by the descendants of Levi and there was a designated place it was to be collected. Presently since they do not have proper records of Levy’s descendants and also cannot gain access to the place where God told them tithes must be collected, they do not pay tithes becaus eit would be illegal.

    So can anyone show me where in the bible we have been instructed to tithe money and where it says that without that we cannot prosper. And please remember we are talking about tithing specifically and not giving in general.

  14. Tithing has been a big topic in my household this year. I am not sure where I stand on whether you have to tithe. My thought though is tithing shows your faithfulness to the Lord and in turn He will bless you. I have been unemployed since February and my wife stays home with our girls. That being said, we continued to tithe even though there was no income coming in. Each month, when we were not sure how we were going to pay the bills, the Lord provided. He gave painting jobs to my wife (she is an artist) and website jobs for me (a side job for me). If we didn’t tithe, would we have gotten those jobs? Maybe, but I truly believe because we gave our finances up to the Lord in February, he has provided for us in his way. After all, its in the Lord’s prayer. Give us this day our daily bread. Every day of every month this year he did just that and I know it is the power of tithing that blessed us!

  15. Michael Wang

    How can a Christian talk about “offer body as a living sacrifice” when he is arguing about offer above 1/10 or below 1/10?
    I have 3 sons, 8, 6, and 4. Our household income has meets the standard of low-income.
    My wife and I decide to offer 2/10 to God each month, for 8 years, we never in a situation of “in need”. Sometimes when it seems “not enought”, we change our life style, not our offering percentage.
    May God bless you as He has blessed us.

  16. Michael Wang

    Just want to clearify that we give 1/10 to our church, and 1/10 to the people of organization that we think is in need. And it is a work of joy to search for the people/organization that has more needs than us.

  17. Hi Tony Issac
    You are a true Berean. I agree with you. I also think that tithe is a matter of freewill just as Abraham gave of his choice. I’ve been feeling as though this whole issue of tithing is the circumcision doctrime of our day. Acts 15. It’s also treated as though it’s a moral command when in fact it is really part of the ceremonial part of the law. However the real problem is that we in America tend to interpret the scripture based on our western culture and not on the culture of biblical times. Also, 95% of christians have little or no understanding of our covenant relationship with God through the death,burial,resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. We are in the same ( actually better according to Hebrews ) covenant relationship as Abraham was with the Lord. Part of the covenant blessing is justification through faith.
    I was just reviewing the teaching on justification.
    (Before I continue I’m assuming anyone reading this knows that Jesus is God and Man in one) Justification means that God has accepted the sacrifice of Christ and his covenant blood as our sacrifice (i.e as if we died on the cross with him) and He actually imparts righteousness to us and considers and declares us to be innocent and eligible to receive all the covenant promises. A big reason Christ took human nature upon himself was to undo what Adam did and receive as a man all the blessings of Heaven and then give those blessings freely to all who will belive. That’s why Jesus would say as the Father has given me a kingdom so give I you a kingdom. That’s why the scripture says that we are of of God and joint heirs of Christ. As a man the second Adam, Christ received all the promises of God that were promised to the fathers and we get to share those promises with Him in this life. There’s not enough space to tell all Christ did, but one thing He did was to live under the law as the second Adam and fulfill it’s obligations and because he was perfectly innocent and righteous (as a man under law)and overcame every temptation of Satan (as a man and for mankind) He crushed the head (i.e. authority) of Satan over mankind. God sees us as He does Christ. Innocent and righteous because of our faith in Christ.
    Through His humanity Christ has taken away the condemnation and curse of the law which would include the so-called curse of not tithing.
    There are other parts of this tithe teaching that are conveniently left out. Such as the year of the tithe when the tithe was to be given to the poor,widows and strangers. Paul said that circumcision was nothing and uncircumcision was nothing but the new creation i.e our new life in Christ by faith. I think we can say the same about tithing. It’s faith in the covenant blood of Jesus Christ. I’ve known people who have tithed and struggled financially. The sad part is that when they went for answers they were told that it must be some “hidden sin” that is preventing the blessing of God or they must have a generational curse on their family. Well I’ve seen generational curses broken rebuked and everthing else and people still struggle financially. What make me angry is that these good christians who really love the Lord start questioning their own faith and Gods love for them – which is what legalistic teachings ultimately lead a sincere christian to do. Then they become the proverbial dog chasing it’s own tail, the faster they “work” to catch their tail the more dizzy the get. I’ve also seen people who haven’t tithed and they’ve been blessed beyond measure. They love the Lord and use their blessings to help others. It’s faith that matters. Faith in the blood, faith in the life that Christ lived here as the second (last) Adam. Faith in the love of God towards us. Faith that God was serious when He said I will cut a new covenant with my people and that He would not remember our sins or iniquities anymore. I’m tired of seeing the people of the new covenant kept in religious guilt and shame because someone is always reminding them of their sin or what a good christian should do. If you want to tithe go ahead their is no condemnation towards you. If you can’t afford to tithe then don’t, give what you are able to. You are under no condemnation in Christ and God has bound himself to bless you because of His covenant. Will you be a millionare? That is up to the Lord. But God has promised to bless and supply all our need according to his riches in glory and not how much we give towards him. That is exactly what He did to Abramham before he gave one penny. Keep studying and keep proclaiming the truth in spite of the rejection that comes with it your reward will be great. For a really good teaching on covenant go to http://www.preceptaustin.org. search for covenant and you’ll find a thirteen lesson teaching. There is also some excellent audio by wayne barber on the same sight. If the modern day church in America can ever get back to our covenant roots we will see more of Gods love, mercy and power just as our forefathers did.
    God Bless

  18. Sonyia,
    Dear Sister, leave that church as fast as your little feet will take you. That is a legalistic system that puts you under condemnatiom and continual doubting of where you stand with the Lord. You have been justified i.e. declared innocent by the blood of Jesus and your faith in Him. And that free gift of justification has entitled you to the same covenants of promise as the Jewish christians are entitled to. read Ephesians ch. 1 and 2.
    I wish I knew where to tell you to go to find a good church but as you start looking for a new fellowship keep asking these questions. Are they teaching about Jesus and the Holy Spirit? Are they teaching on Gods covenant favor or works? Do I feel loved and accepted by the Lord or do I feel condemned by the Lord? ( You may not hear condemning words directly, but you will feel a witness by what the members think is the will of God for you.) If you get a mental picture of the Lord and you see him with an attitude of waiting on you to get it together so He can bless you, then that is condemnation and false guilt at work in your life also known as legalism. It’s really the work of Satan to try and get you back under law so he can use the law to ultimately separate you from the cross and Gods love and presence displayed through Jesus Christ.
    I’m sure these well meaning but ignorant christians do not have any ideal that they themselves have unwittingly believed a lie. I’m sure they sincerely believe they are serving the Lord in what they have told you, but they are dead wrong scripturally.
    In some parts of the country there is a crazy unscriptural practise called a “tithing covenant agreement”. Pastors that promote this heresy will flat out tell you that they are not obligated to pray for you unless you have signed this agreement. You can’t even be a member of their church unless you sign this paper. And being a member entitles you to special priviledges that nonmembers don’t have access to.
    How do I know? I know of some people that it happened to and I was one of them. I had a friend who was a “tithing agreement” of one church in Arizona. I had briefly gone to bible college with the pastor. She was behind in her house payments and was on the verge of losing her house. These tithing churches brag how they will take care of their members, but even though they knew of her situation they didn’t do anything to help her. So I had my wife call the church ( they knew my voice )and ask if she joined the church and became a tithing covenant member if they would help if she needed it. Naturally like a good politician they said yes. Then we laid the hammer of love down and challenged them and said ” then why aren’t you helping someone in your church who is also a singer in the choir . They said that she had to be a tithing covnenant member. When we said that she was they started stumbling all over themselves to save face. Within a week my friend had her money and her house was saved.
    I said all that to say this. We live in perilous times politicaly, economically, and spiritually. A truly biblical New Testament church will be more interested in being a blessing rather that receiving a blessing just as Jesus came not to be served but to serve. Granted there are some churches that are too poor to help financially and need help themselves but if that is the case they should at least agree with you in prayer and have the other members praying and agreeing with you without any condemnation period.
    A truly new testament church will be flowing with blessings from the Lord and everyone will be sharing His blessings with each other. ( I don’t mean just financial either)
    It’s all about Jesus,faith, the blood, covenant, grace and the love of God and all of these come as a free gift from the Lord. Free,Free,Free. If you’re in a church making you feel as though you have to earn the blessings of the Lord then leave and don’t look back and don’t let condemnation and/or false guilt play with your emotions. Pray for them and the church in America and yourself that the eyes of our understanding will be opened so that we can know the love of God and show it to the rest of the word by loving one another. You sound like you want to give and that you like to give. The Lord sees your heart and I know He will remember you and the covenant he has with you in Christ. You take of yourself and your children believing that the Lord will make a way for you to be blessed. God blessed Abraham before he even gave one cent of tithe. You can read the progression in Genesis chapters 12 through 14. I have a good teaching/prophecy on my website that I think would be a blessing to you. It’s under the October 18 prophecy which I’ll be changing shortly because the Lord has given me something else to share with the church. http://www.covenantministriesofamerica.com

  19. Since tithing today,as we know it, is not found in the Bible, where did it come from? devon

  20. Tony Isaac

    Hi Dan Dickerson. It is such a relief that someone reads there bible thoroughly. I have really concerned and very worried over this issue of tithing. It showed to me that christians these days have no understanding whatsoever of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the liberty that this act has secured for us. Instead we seek to be tied down by the old testament doctrines which those of the old testament found difficult to bear. I discovered something else again in the book of Malachi that no one ever preaches about. They pick the money bit and live out the portion that says God hates divorce. If we are holding unot Malachi 3:10 as a reason to support tithing, then we should hold unto malachi 2 that talks about God’s dislike for divorce. Please I admonish us all, read your scriptures thoroughly. Because it works does not make it right. Doing that means that you are validating God’s word with your own personal experiences and that is very dangerous. The Mormons was born out of a personal experience and so many other pseudo christian groups. Coming to think of it, the richest people in the world did not become rich by tithing, they became rich by making sound investments and business moves. we christians are too lazy! We want everything done for us and that is why these doctrines of sowing seeds, tithing etc. are so appealing. GO AND WORK! He that does not work, should not eat. Thats what the scriptures says.

  21. Tony,
    thanks for commenting so much on this post, while I don’t agree with you on some points, it is nice to get a good discussion going. Also I appreciate that you are keeping your comments civil and in love – our debate and arguments don’t really amount to much if we don’t do it in love..

    Well let me first say this, I do agree that Christians should read their bibles thoroughly and “rightly divide the word of truth” and I also believe that wealth is attained by us putting our hands to something for God to prosper. In my experience I have found that most of the blessing I have received from God came in the context of me doing something.

    But on to my main question for you… You seem like a very faithful Christian who really has a heart for God… What is your main motivation against people tithing?

    I think I know where you are coming from, I used to be in a church where a visiting minister came in and made the non-tithers stand up and publicly rebuked them. Clearly this is off base since we should not be giving under compulsion.

    But, even aside from the issue of the tithe, giving causes a blessing for the giver. To the degree that we sow, we reap. It is seen all through out the scriptures and I think you probably agree with me on giving (just not tithing) right?

    If you are in agreement with me on that, don’t you feel that as we continue to prosper one of the best uses of our money (as stewards) is to sow into the Kingdom of God (storing treasures in heaven) to win more souls for Jesus?

    Personally, that is my life goal, to make as much money as I can so that I can give as much into God’s Kingdom as possible – regardless of what the percentage is – do you think I am wrong for wanting to do that?

  22. Tony Isaac

    Hi Bob,

    Am really sorry for coming across like that and believe me, my comments are not directed at you but at the doctrine of tithing and the damage it has done and is still doing. Maybe its a bit of misplaced aggression on my part since I cannot defend myself against the preachers that have battered me with this doctrine, I picked an easy target to vent my anger and completely forgot that everything has to be done in love. I apologise again.

    Quite seriously though, I feel that this doctrine is a bit untrue and gives believers false hopes and worst still, it creates guilt in the hearts of those who genuinely want to serve God but unfortunately haven’t got the financial means. If we look at scriptures, we will find out the reason the law of tithing was introduced. It was a form of taxation in which the kingdom of Israel ran. The levites were the public office holders who provided, education, healthcare, legal mediation and spiritual advice. As such, the tithes were a means of providing for them and running the kingdom. The other thing the tithes were for was to provide for the less privileged, the orphans and the widows quite akin to the welfare system a lot of western countries today adapt. It was never intended to be a show of righteousness (The Pharisees made it so unfortunately).

    Not everybody in ancient Israel paid tithes. The less privileged didn’t. It was used to help folks like these. Unfortunately, when everyone is made to feel guilty for not tithing, today’s church does not consider the less fortunate ones struggling to survive. The tithes are actually supposed to help people such people but not in today’s church. Instead they make these people believe their none payment of tithe makes their situation deserving. Is that Christianity? I think not. Sonyia I apologise for making reference to your situation, but Bob, do you think she has been fairly treated by her church? The early church took care of the needs of their members. I am so passionate about this because I have been a victim of this bible bashing. I was out of work for a about a year, my wife was expecting, I submitted numerous applications, I was afraid that I would lose my home, I was behind on the household bills and did not get any help from the church whatsoever. Instead I was made to feel guilty for not tithing. Well a tenth of zero is what? Zero. And that was exactly what I had. However, in spite of what we were going through, I still gave to those who were worse off than myself but it did not count because I did not mark the tithe register in church and act like the priest and the levite who left their fellow Jew to die on the road in the parable of the good Samaritan. I eventually found a job and the Lord really smiled on my family and me and there the church was again berating me for not paying tithe again. Am not against giving, I am against this legalistic style of giving. God has asked me to give my two months wages which I received in arrears and I did that. And believe me, it was not easy. God has asked me to empty my pockets and give when I barely had enough myself. I am not a tight fisted, disgruntled Christian with an axe to grind. It is the injustice meted upon well meaning folks who want to serve God that cuts me. Why should someone be kicked out of church for not paying tithes? Even adulterers and fornicators are not treated that badly.

    My heart genuinely goes out to those in situations like this and believe me it’s not a good place to be. That’s why I have decided to speak out and not hold my peace. People are exploited and manipulated with a man made doctrine. If it were of God, it would not have been the burden it is today. Families struggling financially would not be made to feel guilty and thus believe they brought their situation upon themselves. It pains me very much.

    I have to say, I admire your maturity. You did not respond in my same tone.

    May God bless you richly and am not sure if you are married but as I wrote this, I felt your wife being impressed in my heart. It is well with her.

  23. Tony,
    thanks for replying – just so you know, I wasn’t saying that you weren’t being civil at all – I honestly thought that you kept your composure pretty well considering how passionate you are about the topic – you should read some of the comments I get sometimes from Christians ;)

    Anyway, in regards Sonyia, I agree with you – in fact, while we may disagree about the blessing that tithing brings, we agree that no one should be forcing anyone to give anything. To me that falls under the category of “giving under compulsion” (2 cor 9:7). And come to think of it, if someone is being forced to give, then it really isn’t giving anymore.

    I’ve been in the same boat you mentioned. In fact, the preacher I mentioned in the previous comment came to the church I was attending when I was out of work and was struggling financially. I know how difficult it is when you are broke and I pass no judgment on anyone – the way I see it this whole tithing/giving thing is between the giver and God. And God always sees things differently than we do…

    And FYI I am married and I appreciate your kind words.

  24. Tithing is such a touchy subject. I feel tithing is between the tither and our Lord. We shouldn’t be guilted into tithing because this is not giving, this is forced parting of our money. There has been much debate on whether it is biblical or not to tithe. I am not sure either way but as far as my heart, we tithe because the Lord will provie. Now does that mean if we stop tithing, the Lord will stop providing? No! Does it show less faithfulness if we stop tithing or if we do less than “1/10″? No! Yes the Lord says to tithe 1/10 but I have to believe in my heart that he would not want you to go financially bankrupt.

    This brings up my purpose of tithing. I feel if you show the Lord you trust in His promises of tithing, he will bless you. As I wrote on my blog about trusting God http://christianparentingtipsandideas.blogspot.com/2008/10/trusting-god.html the Lord provided for us in a big way this year when I was unemployed for most of the year and my wife stays home with the kids. I believe part of that was because we were faithful in tithing as often as we could. There were times we could not afford to but the Lord still blessed us in what we needed.

    As far as I am concerned, we are tithing to the Lord, Not The Church. If you are feeling pressure by your church to tithe and you feel it is wrong, find out their stance on tithing. If it isn’t what you believe, maybe it is the Lord’s way of having you move on to another church.

  25. Tony Isaac

    Hi Greg,

    I admire your sincerity. I don’t think I have met that many tithe payers who are this sincere. I have studied this subject quite intensely and know that this tithe debate rages on all over Christianity. I personally do not tithe and draw my reasons from scripture but now looking through scripture, I see that those that tithe do not commit any sin neither do those that don’t. It all goes down to motive and one’s relationship with God.

    By motive, I mean; why do you tithe? Out of fear? To secure prosperity? To please the elders of your church so you don’t get kicked out? Or are you doing it based on your relationship with God. If it is out of fear, that’s a sin. Bible says anything not done in faith is sin. If you are doing it because you are being compelled, God is not in it. And definitely no blessings would follow.

    After Zacchaeus met with Jesus in Luke 19, he resolved to pay back all the he had collected deceitfully and also vowed to give a certain percentage of his wealth to the poor. That was a personal choice, which he would get blessed for. Jesus did not make it a requirement for him to receive salvation. In as much as that was not tithing per say, am drawing on its connection to finances.

    I think if you tithe and you are doing it unto the Lord with a sincere heart, God will bless you for it and if you do not tithe and you are doing it unto the out of a sincere heart, you are not sinning either. Lets consider Romans 14 from the Message Bible.

    1 Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do. And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with—even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department. Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently.

    2 -4For instance, a person who has been around for a while might well be convinced that he can eat anything on the table, while another, with a different background, might assume he should only be a vegetarian and eat accordingly. But since both are guests at Christ’s table, wouldn’t it be terribly rude if they fell to criticizing what the other ate or didn’t eat? God, after all, invited them both to the table. Do you have any business crossing people off the guest list or interfering with God’s welcome? If there are corrections to be made or manners to be learned, God can handle that without your help.

    5Or, say, one person thinks that some days should be set aside as holy and another thinks that each day is pretty much like any other. There are good reasons either way. So, each person is free to follow the convictions of conscience.

    6 -9What’s important in all this is that if you keep a holy day, keep it for God’s sake; if you eat meat, eat it to the glory of God and thank God for prime rib; if you’re a vegetarian, eat vegetables to the glory of God and thank God for broccoli. None of us are permitted to insist on our own way in these matters. It’s God we are answerable to—all the way from life to death and everything in between—not each other. That’s why Jesus lived and died and then lived again: so that he could be our Master across the entire range of life and death, and free us from the petty tyrannies of each other.

    10 -12So where does that leave you when you criticize a brother? And where does that leave you when you condescend to a sister? I’d say it leaves you looking pretty silly—or worse. Eventually, we’re all going to end up kneeling side by side in the place of judgment, facing God. Your critical and condescending ways aren’t going to improve your position there one bit. Read it for yourself in Scripture:

    “As I live and breathe,” God says,
    “every knee will bow before me;
    Every tongue will tell the honest truth
    that I and only I am God.” So tend to your knitting. You’ve got your hands full just taking care of your own life before God.

    13 -14Forget about deciding what’s right for each other. Here’s what you need to be concerned about: that you don’t get in the way of someone else, making life more difficult than it already is. I’m convinced—Jesus convinced me!—that everything as it is in itself is holy. We, of course, by the way we treat it or talk about it, can contaminate it.

    15 -16If you confuse others by making a big issue over what they eat or don’t eat, you’re no longer a companion with them in love, are you? These, remember, are persons for whom Christ died. Would you risk sending them to hell over an item in their diet? Don’t you dare let a piece of God-blessed food become an occasion of soul-poisoning!

    17 -18God’s kingdom isn’t a matter of what you put in your stomach, for goodness’ sake. It’s what God does with your life as he sets it right, puts it together, and completes it with joy. Your task is to single-mindedly serve Christ. Do that and you’ll kill two birds with one stone: pleasing the God above you and proving your worth to the people around you.

    19 -21So let’s agree to use all our energy in getting along with each other. Help others with encouraging words; don’t drag them down by finding fault. You’re certainly not going to permit an argument over what is served or not served at supper to wreck God’s work among you, are you? I said it before and I’ll say it again: All food is good, but it can turn bad if you use it badly, if you use it to trip others up and send them sprawling. When you sit down to a meal, your primary concern should not be to feed your own face but to share the life of Jesus. So be sensitive and courteous to the others who are eating. Don’t eat or say or do things that might interfere with the free exchange of love.

    22 -23Cultivate your own relationship with God, but don’t impose it on others. You’re fortunate if your behavior and your belief are coherent. But if you’re not sure, if you notice that you are acting in ways inconsistent with what you believe—some days trying to impose your opinions on others, other days just trying to please them—then you know that you’re out of line. If the way you live isn’t consistent with what you believe, then it’s wrong.

    From the above scripture we see that one has the right to compel anyone to tithe and no one has the right to compel anyone to do otherwise. It is a personal thing between each individual and God.

    So Greg, if you feel you should keep tithing (not out of compulsion) please go right ahead and if you feel you shouldn’t, just as well.

    I hope this helps.

  26. I just want to say thanks to all who have offered commentary about my situation. While I find that many share my belief, I am not so confident that I will find a church home in MS that does. It’s apparent that many have resorted to preaching for the money and not caring for the soul. Pray for me as I pray for you and may we all continue to seek and grow closer to God in these last and evil days!

  27. Michael Wang

    Just want to clarify that Jesus preach for the money but also care for the soul. And they do related. A Christian care about money already hurting his own soul.
    Blessing does not come after you tithing, it comes at the time you change your life style and offer your best to our Lord.
    The 1/10 is not a law to give, it is only a standard for you to look and evaluate your life style. It’s a precentage, not a certain amont.
    Cut your cable, stop prescribe the magazine, eat less, shop only what you need not what you want… and want less month by month.
    These practice bless me a lot.

  28. Hi Devon
    Your question is a great one. Unfortunetly the answer is a long one with a lot of church and secular history involved. I’m not an expert in either. But there is a lot of information that is fairly accurate here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithes. I did some research about 6 or 7 years ago and remember that I found out that the modern version of tithing was instituted by the catholic church around 500 or 600 A.D. as a way to compensate the priests. At one point in it’s history if one did not pay tithes to the catholic church then that was grounds for excommunication. I wish I could remember more. I’m ashamed to say I didn’t keep notes from that study because at the time I didn’t think I would ever really be needing them. Boy, was I wrong or what :) I remember the name of a book called The lie of the Tithe that is supposed to be very informative – I haven’t had a chance to read it and I think the only way to buy it is online. I did take some church history in bible college and can vouch that the part on wikipedia about the early church not collecting tithes is fairly accurate to the best of my recollection. Hope this helps you get started in learning more on the truth. I personally am not for or against it, I think it’s a choice between the person and Jesus. However, I do get upset when people use the scripture to manipulate or even threaten someone into tithing. This whole subject is pretty huge today. I can’t believe how many emails i’ve gotten just from my comments on this post.
    If we really knew and could see the redemption of Jesus and what His whole mission was about we wouldn’t even have to be writing about this subject. Everyone is so quick to jump up and espouse the virtues of tithing or not tithing but all the while The scripture says that God desires mercy and not sacrifice. I known people on both sides of the issue who wouldn’t know how to show mercy if it hit them between the eyes. And it seems to me that the ones I’ve seen blessed the most on either side of this issue are the ones who are merciful, especially to the poor – in their own congregation first – and then to others. Didn’t Jesus say to be merciful as our Father in Heaven is merciful. Didn’t the Spirit of God say if we don’t love our brother whom we have seen how can we say we love God whom we have not seen. Didn’t James say that if a poor brother/sister came to church and we say be warm and well fed but we didn’t give them what they needed to be warm and well fed that the love of God was not in us. We collect tithes in the modern age and neglect our poor brothers and sisters or put demands on them that are impossible for them to keep. The people in the old testament had it better than some people in church today. At least the poor then could glean the fields and there was even a year of tithing for the widows and poor and orphans. Didn’t Jesus say that a religious person went to prayer i.e. stood in Gods Presence and told God how good he had been by saying I tithe of All I possess while the poor sinner couldn’t even look up and cried God be merciful to me a sinner. The pharisee went home righteous in his own eyes while the sinner went home righteous in Gods eyes. My prayer is that we all will ask for the Lord to open the eyes of our understanding so that we all can truly see the enormous love of God towards us so that we can start showing that same love to one another instead of spending time scratching an itch that probably doesn’t need scratching.
    Mercy is greater than tithing or not tithing. Love is the greater virtue. If someone is tithing and has no love then as 1 Cor. 13 says it is nothing and profits the person nothing. They may be blessed financially but without love they are bankrupt. Same for non-tithers or those who give what the spirit leads them to give. You may give 5% cheerfully but without love it profits you nothing. Covenant Mercy is king in the Kingdom of God.

  29. Hi Dan,

    Another nice piece and quite informative too. I just pray that God intervenes in this situation that the church of today has placed itself.

    Ironically, the doctrine of tithing is not the only questionable doctrine in today’s church. Faith has been so abused and it has been redefined as wishful thinking and at times a bit of stupidity. I fear that we are ging back to the time before the reformation. Now christianity has become more of a works thing than anything else. You are being bullied into accepting everything preached from the pulpit. If you raise any objection, you are tagged a rebel and made to believe you are a sinner. What is so painful about it is the fact that we in this dispensation have our bibles where we can actually study and know the truth for ourselves but those before the reformation did not have access to bibles and were easily decieved. But God never leaves Himself without a witness, he will always reserve the 7000 who will not bow to baal. Thanks to the sacrifice of Jerome, Martin Luther and a lot of their contemporaries who sacrificed thier lives for the gospel, we now enjoy christianity. With the way the church has turned out night, may the labours of the reformers not be in vain. We now preach the very things they fought against! The just no longer lives by faith but by works. We no longer enjoy God’s grace but still strive to earn HIS approval by works and boast about these works!

    All sorts of doctrines that originated from the catholic church are being peddled right, left and centre in today’s church and have now been accepted as christianity. Jesus never told us to celebrate His birth; christmas was never in the bible! Titles from the catholic church are now the order of the day in today’s church. A clergy laity divide is present today that never existed in the early church.

    I fear for today’s church, am so concerned about where we are headed.

    Am so sorry for seemingly steering us away from the issue at hand but ironically, this doctrine is actually a small part of the real problem; salvation by works.

    Another reformation is coming and it is going to be a really big one. Senator Grassley’s inquiry would be nothing compared to it! People would be exposed for what they really are and only the truth will prevail. The bible really says that the truth would become scarce, it most certainly is. Today’s knowledge of God is sooooo shallow, people are easily deceived.

    I apologise once gain folks and paticularly to you Bob because this forum was not set up to discuss this but i just could not ignore the fact.

  30. Susan Wells

    Plumbline Ministries has excellent teaching on tithing, giving and curses on finances.

    Mal 2:2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take it to heart, To give glory to My name,” Says the LORD of hosts, “I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already, Because you do not take it to heart.

    The principle is that blessings can be cursed. So the blessing resulting from tithing in Mal 3:8-10 can be countered by generational curses or curses that come into our lives.

    By the same principle, blessings can soften the effect of curses. Thus the tribe of Levi had a curse that they would be scattered in Israel (Gen 49:7). However, they were blessed when they stood a stand for the Lord at the foot of Mount Sinai.

    Exo 32:28 So the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses. And about three thousand men of the people fell that day.
    Exo 32:29 Then Moses said, “Consecrate yourselves today to the LORD, that He may bestow on you a blessing this day, for every man has opposed his son and his brother.”

    They were still scattered in Israel in the Levitical cities but the scattering was a blessing to the people as the Levites ministered to the people throughout Israel.

  31. Susan Wells

    The Apostle Paul has taught that we are under grace and not under the law. He teaches on this at length in Colossians 2 and Galations 4 and indeed is somewhat frustrated at the Galatians.

    —————–
    Gal 2:19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
    Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—
    Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
    —————

    For example, strict observance of the Sabbath was introduced under the Law.

    ———-
    Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
    Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

    Gal 4:9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?
    Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.
    Gal 4:11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.
    ——————–

  32. Susan Wells

    Now both the observance of the Sabbath and tithing are principles and have precedence before the Law was established. The Sabbath was first observed by God. An example of tithing – albeit a one-time tithe – was done by Abraham to Melchizedek.

    However, you can observe a principle and reap its benefit without being legally obliged to observe the principle.

    Chuck Missler in his teaching on the Sermon on the Mount observes that the standard in the Sermon on the Mount is much higher in every way than the standards set by the Law. Everything we are and everything we have belong to Christ. We seek the Kingdom first in everything we do and all the choices we make.

    Giving 10% of one’s income seems much easier than making all our choices in lifestyle, career, choices about where we live and work and take care of our bodies and rest and sleep unto God and to advance the Kingdom but without being legalistic about it.

    Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.
    Rom 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

  33. Hi Susan,

    I am inclined to disagree with you over these so called principles. If we go by what you have said, then circumcision becomes relevant because it was done before the law. It was a principle before the law. Animal sacrifice as well had been in existence before the law even so that the book of hebrews says that Abel’s sacrifice was offered up in faith.

    Back to Abraham’s tithe. He did not tithe his personal possessions, there was nothing spiritual about his encounter with Melchizedek. So if we want to uphold this so called principle, then we will have to go and raid our enemies, tithe the plunder and give out the remaining 90%.

    Lets face it, we are still trying to apply old testament principles in the new testament. They are totally different. The new testament is solely faith based and has no place for so called principles.

  34. Susan Wells

    Tithing is done off increase.

    Abraham tithed from unexpected gains obtained in an unprovoked battle to recover his relative. Abraham prospered at other times and there is no record of his tithing at any any other time. However, this is an example of a precedent before tithing was established as part of the Law.

    Circumcision was a mark of God’s covenant with Abraham. Circumcise = berith which means ‘to cut’. Cutting one’s flesh was a mark of covenant. We are under the New Covenant. Christ does have covenant marks on His body.

    The principle of animal sacrifice was ‘without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.’

    Both Old and New Testament are full of principles which are not mandatory under the New Covenant but are universally applicable. Dietary and sanitary principles are found in much of the Law.

    Covenant and law are different than principle. We have to be able to distinguish the two.

  35. Susan Wells

    If one is following the way tithes were presented in the Old Testament, it is a far more complex issue than I think is taught in churches these days.

    I first came across this in teachings of Plumbline Ministries. Plumbline focuses on the ‘first fruits’ principle on which the tithe is based rather than a legalistic interpretation of a tithe requirement.

    They focus our intention on the original intent of the tithe in Deuteronomy 14:22-29, pointing out that two out of three years, the tithe is saved up. The people then go to Jerusalem, buy their favorite food with that money and then eat that before the Lord with great joy.

    The intent seems to have been to build anticipation of this event every year of looking forward to a joyful family celebration where you’d spend more money than you would otherwise spend and celebrate in the presence of the Lord.

    The third year, they were to use the tithe to provide for the Levite, the orphans, widows and aliens. Plumbline points out that a lot of creativity is required from us in how we distribute this money and that God designed it this way.

  36. Hi Susan
    It’s late ( I started this at 10 pm ) and I was going to go to bed but I can’t pass this by. I’ll try and keep this short and make sense at the same time.
    There is no way I’m going to cover everything so I urge you and others to go to this website ( it’s not mine )
    http://www.preceptaustin.org/covenant_in_the_bible.htm and spend at least 6 months in prayer and study on this subject. It will change your life and reading/understanding of the scripture like nothing else can. Parts of the bible that make no sense at all to our western mindset will become totally understandable with a godly revelation of covenant in scripture. For example, have you ever wondered why Johnathan took off his his robe,armour, sword and belt and gave them to David after he and David cut or made a covenant ? You’ll have to go to the website to find out ; )
    By the way it’s not because they were sexually attracted to each other as some have thought.
    You seem like an intelligent and informed person scripturally so I’m sure this is an oversight on your part. But, do you realise that when someone
    implies or says that a christian, who has choosen not to tithe,is under a curse that they are actually saying that the Father will trample on His own blood – the
    blood of Christ – and curse those whom He has blessed
    The blood that was shed for the confirmation of Gods promises and covenant and the redemption of all who will believe.Nor can anyone say that blessings can be cursed and still be correct from a covenant point of view.
    Let me explain. I am familiar with both generational curse and tithing curse teachings and I have come to believe that it is not a New Covenant stance.
    Galatians clearly says that we are no longer under the curse of the law which includes everything from Genesis to the time of the resurrection of Christ. Why until the Resurection of Christ? Because Christ came as a man born under the law and therefore ministered under the law because the New Covenant prophesied by the prophets could not take effect until the death of Christ. ( Gal 4:5-6 , Hebrews ch. 9:17-18 ) . Jesus taught the disciples all that Moses and the prophets said about
    Him Luke 24:27. The reason that Genesis is included in the law is because historically the Pentatuach. i.e. the five books that Moses wrote by inspiration, have been considered the five books of the law. I believe that the Jews still believe this today. In fact, their is a movement in Israel to make the Noahic Laws binding on the whole human race. The penalty for breaking the laws? Beheading ! But, back to the subject at hand

    Biblical covenants have 7 or 8 elements to them but because of space I’ll just briefly cover two – maybe only one :) as it relates to this subject of
    cursing. Especially the modern day version of the generational and tithing curse.
    Before I share the elements of covenant making I have to say that there were two types of covenant in Scripture that are really important for christians to understand today.

    One type of covenant was , what I call , a two way covenant. Both parties involved made pledges or promises to keep and if either one broke the pledge/oath then the curse ( more on that later ) would come into effect. These covenants were always conditional and temporary and could only be fulfilled if both parties were
    able and willing to keep their promises.
    Israel was under this first type of covenant the two way covenant. They only received the benefits if they obeyed completely the whole law. The whole law. If they tithed but failed in other areas then they were in danger of the curse of the law. If they did fail they could offer a blood sacrifice which would atone for their sin and keep the angel of death or the devourer off their backs. But Israel not only had a history of breaking the law but also of turning their back on the blood sacrifice and turning to idols.

    The other kind of covenant was what I call a one way covenant i.e its’ fulfillment depended on the one who had made or cut the covenant. These were often unconditional. God made one of these with Abraham. It was a covenant that was everlasting, as in cannot fail, and was in effect for ever. Jehovah made this type
    ( thats why it can’t fail ) of covenant with Noah, Abraham, David, and this may shock you, also with Jesus. Because all the promises to Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David were to them and their seed ( singular not plural ) Galatians 3:16. This also requires
    an understanding of why Christ had to become a real human being in the flesh, although He was sinless unlike us. There is not space for that here. ( the preachers of this generation have sure let us down, when is the last time you heard a whole years teaching just about Jesus and His work of redemption and covenant ? )

    This is also the type of covenant every believer is under in Christ because through our faith in Christs sacrifice God placed us in Christ (1Cor.1:30) and has made us the seed of Abraham. It doesn’t matter if a believer sees the benefits of this covenant or not because it’s not dependant on sight it’s dependant on Gods promise and our faith in His promise. Since there is such a lack of knowledge in the body of Christ
    about the New Covenant that’s probably why we don’t see more of the effects of this covenant on the world at large, because ” as thou hast believed so be it unto thee”. If we understood that we are witnesses of the covenant and that God would call upon us to validate that covenant with signs and wonders and miracles, we would turn the world upside down and inside out.
    But, I do believe the Lord is ready to remember this holy covenant and He will cause it to be fulfilled in the earth soon.

    Here are the elements of Biblical covenants

    A. Pledges/Promises were made along with curses
    B. A blood sacrifice was made / cut and offered to
    Jehovah
    C. the terms of the covenant were read
    D. Witnesses were involved in order verify that a
    covenant was made and were called upon when
    necessary to validate it
    E. A meal of some kind was usually shared ( as in
    communion )
    G. Gifts were exchanged
    H. Garments were given, Sometimes armour was exchanged
    as in David and Johnathans covenant

    I think there is more but this is good enough for now.
    The only two I’ll skim over are A and B some of C and use the Abrahamic covenant. Covenants as a practise were around before Abrahams covenant so the Lord used the custom of covenant, which men already understood, as a visual picture and way of communicating what His plans
    and purposes for the human race were. Covenants actually began in the garden of Eden immediately after the fall when the Lord sacrificed an animal and clothed Adam and Eve with the skins or garments and then made the first Messianic Covenant promise in Genesis 3:15
    Back to Abrahams day.

    When two or more parties wanted to do a business transaction or a king wanted to make peace or become partners with another king they would make or cut a covenant in order to assure that the promises made would be honored. When covenants were made in the ancient days a sacrificial animal was slain or cut and split in two halves.( this was done with Abraham Gen 15:10) Then they would walk between the two halves ( called the walk of death i.e. this animal represents my death so that I can live for you ) and make a solemn binding oath saying
    ” May God do so and more to me if I do not keep the terms of this covenant.”
    Basically they were saying may I cease to exist if I break this covenant with you. If they did break it then the other party had the right to slay or kill the covenant breaker. And if they didn’t kill them then the next of kin could, who was called the kinsmen redeemer aka avenger of the covenant.
    However when God made covenant with Abraham He did not let Abraham walk between the two halves of the sacrifice because He knew that Abraham would fail to keep it. Abraham saw a burning furnace and a smoking lamp pass between the two halves. Most agree that these
    represented Jesus Himself walking between the two halves. God was saying, I am going to be the sacrifice for your inability it be faithful to covenant and if I fail to keep this promise to you, Abraham my friend, then may I cease to exist as God.
    ( we know it is impossible for God to lie )

    They would also call upon someone to be witnesses, God Himself was a witness to all covenants and still is today whether people realise it or not such as the marriage covenant.

    When God initiated a covenant He would use heaven and earth as witnesses to validate the fact that it was a true covenant. That’s what was going on in Egypt with the plagues. Heaven and Earth were being called upon by God as witnesses of the Covenant that God had made with
    Abraham.
    Also each party was bound to defend the other even to the point of sacrificing their life for their covenant partner. If one of the parties were attacked by their enemies then the other could call on their covenant partner to come to their aid and defense and the partner was bound – i.e. handcuffed to the pledge – under penalty of death. This is what happened with Joshua and the Gibeonites in Joshua ch. 9 -10.
    That is a remarkable covenant, the Gibeonites deceived Joshua into making a covenant with them in order to save there own necks. Once the covenant was made it could not be broken so the Gibeonites were made the servants of Israel. When the Gibeonites needed help they called upon their covenant partner Joshua and Joshua was bound to defend them as if they were Israelites. That’s how strong covenant is. In fact Gibeonites, by virtue of their covenant with Joshua were also in covenant with the Lord and the Lord honored this covenant by sending fire from heaven to defeat the Gibeonites enemies! It’s also where Joshua commanded the sun to stand still until they could avenge their enemies! Covenant is strong. God still has this kind of commitment to Covenant in our day whether or not we believe. He is bound to protect and defend us and that is exactly what Jesus was
    doing when He stopped Paul / Saul in his tracks on the way to Damascus. Acts ch. 9:1-8.
    It’s also why Abraham went to rescue lot, why the Lord plagued Egypt, why the Lord defended and fought for Jehoshaphats army, and Gideons,and why He used Samson as the avenger of the covenant against the Philistines. And that’s why when Balaam and Balak got together to curse
    Israel God stopped the prophet by using a jackass as a witness to Gods’ covenant with Israel to bless them and not curse them. God was keeping His word to Abraham and his seed to curse those that cursed him or his seed and to defend,keep and guard those pledges He made
    with Adam and Eve, Abraham and others.

    When Jesus said that Abraham saw my day and was glad He was referring to this type of covenant in Gen 15. It was the same covenant that was prophesied by Jeremiah and Ezekiel and the other prophets.
    Just as with Abraham so with us. We do not now or ever will, walk between the two pieces ( Jesus’ sacrifice ) in order to receive our righteousness and the blessing or freedom from the curse of the law. The New Covenant is also a one way covenant, unless you count faith on our part just as Abraham, but God even supplies that to us as a gift. He is bound with an oath to supply all the power and wisdom and righteousness of the New Covenant to us and glorify Himself through Jesus Christ.
    God Himself became the sacrifice, fulfilled all the terms of the covenant, and also took Abrahams and the Israelites as well as our unfaithfulness to keep covenant, and crucified it at the cross so that the curse of covenant/law breaking would not be upon those who believe.
    To say that those who have choosen not to tithe are cursed or that the blessing can be cursed is like Balaam trying to curse Israel. It can’t be done it’s a waste of time and energy on the part of those who persist in believing this. Either Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law or He did not. There is no gray area in this
    matter. Either the everlasting blood of the covenant that came from the body of Jesus is good enough to free us from the curse and our sins or it’s not. There is no Yes but, in this matter.
    This is one absolute that cannot be changed or broken by anyone and woe be to the one who tries to change it or fight against it.
    Jesus said that God blesses and causes his rain to fall on the just and the unjust. The church keeps stumbling over the same thing that tripped up Adam and Eve.
    They believed Satans lie that if they did something or didn’t do something then they would be like God and have his wisdom and knowledge. The fact is they were already created in His image and likeness and experienced His manifested Presence everyday and owned everything. This
    is exactly what the New Covenant teaches us. Paul said the world was ours 1Cor 3:21-22 and that we were being renewed in knowledge after the image of Christ. Peter said that we are partakers in His divine nature and if we continue in the grace of God we would grow in that nature. Jesus said He would never leave us nor forsake us ( His Presence)
    Abraham was never commanded to tithe and was never threatened with a curse if he didn’t. The tithe was incorporated into the law for various reasons. But once in the law or Old Covenant then anyone who commited himself to keeping the law also became a possible candidate for the curse of the law if broken. So the only way for a Christian to be cursed for not tithing would be to put himself/herself back under the law which is exactly what Paul was warning the Galatian Christians about. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law because He took our place, bore our unfaithfulness to covenant keeping and became a curse for us. That’s referring to all curses that are in the law and the prophets because the prophets were only reminding the people of the terms of the covenant / law.
    ( Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of course )

    So the questions that you have to ask yourself are these:
    Is the blood of Jesus good enough ?
    It is called the everlasting blood of the everlasting New Covenant.

    Is the word that God has spoken true?
    Are Gods promises faithful enough to be counted on to be true for us?
    Is God a liar?
    Does God bless one day through the blood of Christ and then curse the next because of our disobedience?
    I mean seriously, the Israelite had more covenant mercy than we experience in todays’ church. They had a better understanding of the mercy of God through Covenant than we do today. And they were under a covenant of works !

    Has God ceased to exist as God?
    If God now has changed His mind about the Pledges He has made then He would have to cease to exist as God according to the terms of the covenant that began with Adam moved on to Noah and Abraham then David and was finished when He cut the New Covenant in the body of Jesus Christ.

    One big key to understanding all this is the humanity of Christ. Jesus had to become a man in order to fulfill the covenant promise to Adam and Eve in Gen 3:15.
    When we get down to it Christ is all: He is the priest, the sacrifice, the covenant, the executor of his own testament. Since man (Adam) lost his glory and inheirtance it had to be a man ( a sinless man ) to restore what was lost.
    What was lost?
    Romans says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
    What is the glory of God in relationship to mankind?
    It is the image,likeness and manifested, tangible
    presence of Jesus Christ. Hebrews says Jesus is the brightness of his glory and the express image of his likeness.
    So, if a christian tithes do we say He/ she is bearing the glory of God?
    If a christian does not tithe have they lost the glory of God?
    The moment I begin trusting in anything (that would include tithing) other than the cross, the blood and the Holy Spirit for the manifestation of the image, likeness and manifested presence of Jesus ( the life of God )
    then I have put myself under the law, and am eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or as Paul would say ” You have fallen from grace.
    It is probably the most deadly thing to a christian because it comes on so slow and subtile ( just like with Adam and Eve ).

    So is tithing a sin?
    Only if it becomes a binding law upon your life and you use it to try and curse those whom God has blessed. Ephesians 1:3 we are blessed in Christ with every spiritual blessing.(Just because it’s money does not mean it’s not spiritual).
    Is not tithing a sin?
    Only if it is used as an excuse to become cold hearted and neglect a true need when it is in your power to meet that need.
    But the blood of Christ has cleansed us from both types of sin so we are no longer in debt to either one and are free to serve Him in true New Covenant righteousness.

    There is a lot more I could write and I apologise to all for the length of this. If some of this doesn’t make sense I understand and encourage you to check out that website above and really spend time in prayer and study on this subject of covenant especially since Jesus Himself is called the Messenger of the Covenant and indeed in Isaiah He is called the covenant. Isa 42:6; 49:8 and Mal 3:1

    P.s. Just because someone has a degree in biblical studies does not necessarily mean they have an understanding of the scripture. Everyone is going to relate to the Lord and Scripture either through conditional covenant law or unconditional covenant favor, more often than not it’s a mixture of the two which can be really confusing.

  37. Thank you all for this awesome site…and discussion! I have studied this subject for years and just had a disucssion around this with some family members tonight…

    All I asked them to do was to call it a 10% offering and I would gladly send this in :-)
    **I also stated that the amount my household gives, sometimes daily, is only known by my wife and I and I do not want this to be public knowledge. (We give to others and give cash to church so no records follow what we offer)

    To me…to use the word ‘tithing’ states that I am still under law and it eradicates the fact that Christ fulfilled this in us.

    I think the fact that I can give offerings (often MORE than 10%) with joy…but I cringe when I hear the ‘Tithe’ preahed…says a lot…Id rather give with a joyful heart..

  38. I thought I was the only one that believed God owned everything I got. Ah well, I think I will hold my peace before evryone gets tired of me.

  39. I followed this link from the tithing and debt page and want to address some points i read in this post. Two quotes from FMF and one quote by christianpf:

    1. “Jesus endorsed the tithe”

    – Jesus endorsed the law in that passage. Just prior in that passage he specifically told the disciples to obey the pharisees because they sit in Moses seat. I may be missing something here, but Jesus command in Matthew or Luke about tithing is not referring to us unless we should concern ourselves with the law.

    2. “As New Testament believers we are called to a higher calling”

    – God never changes, and this goes for his principles of giving. God always expected 100% stewardship. The problem is that each of us learns differently. THe tithe is not the answer for Spirit led Christians. For instance, unless you were a farmer or a herdsman in Israel, you didn’t give a single “cent” of your increase towards tithing. On the same note, I don’t understand how you can define how we should give by the example of a rich man who didn’t sacrifice a single “cent” from his own established wealth. Abraham only gave a tithe from the spoils of war.

    I am not trying to get people to give less, but i’m trying to show the truth here that tithing was only applicable to a small portion of the population of Israel. As i stated, some Israelites didn’t give a single cent towards tithing.

    3. “He said we could test Him”
    -The challenge in Malachi is not a chance to dare, trick, or deceive God. It is an opportunity to for ourselves to prove that God’s promises are true. We put God’s promises to the test every day. Tithing was not an exclusive litmus test for Israel. I dare you to test the law of gravity. Throw a ball up and see the effects; it will come down. Plant an apple seed and an apple tree will grow. Malachi 3, is nothing but a plea from God to get his people to at least do it, if not for obedience sake, at least for their own benefit.

    – jared b.

  40. Hey Joe, thanks bro.

  41. Travis Taylor

    There were 613 laws that people were supposed to follow if we follow one we have to follow them all. So if you tithe you must also do all of the rest. Jesus’ teaching was not during the new testament at all. This is where people mess up. A new testament can not begin until the death of a testator. Jesus had not died yet so he was still under the old law. When He died the New Testament began. And as far as I know there are no levitical priest that I can pay my tithe to. Don’t get me wrong, I love giving to God. I just know that I will be blessed not based on any law of tithing or whatever, but I will be blessed because I am now a child of God. God doesn’t need your money and He would much rather you pay your light bill than spend your last bit of money on tithing. Tithe your last bit of money to a church and then when your lights get shut off ask that same church for help and see how many of those same churches will tell you no.

  42. i post my comments to one of the detractors of tithing to travis seitler and earl russel. their article contains little bit playing politics and they are much more in focus to the physical material things rather than to the spiritual salvation.

    i cited one example in the book of mathew during jesus ministerial era when he was confronted by the jews about giving tax to caesar. they didn’t seem to understand what that verse that jesus wants to convey.

    “give to caesar to ceasar’s and God to God’s” both subjects were the head of the state to each respective jurisdiction. what i’ve found in this grammar is that, jesus had used a singular verb (give) in all four books of the new testament. if we pay a 10% to caesar then it goes the same likewise to God. the jews understood what that statement of Jesus was all about. the only existing financial laws at that time of jesus is the tithing law. when jesus was brought to Caiapas the priest there was no accusation in regard to opposing the giving of tithes to God except the tax to caesar which is only a fabrication by the jews.

    WHAT DOES THE NUMBERS 31 IMPLIES?

    another argument of russel can be found in numbers 31:28 in which God never used the tithe in distibuting the plunder to the people.

    1/500 to the soldiers and 1/50 to the israelite. so a equivqlent of .02 and .2 respectively.

    DID GOD BREAK HIS OWN COMMANDMENT??? (MALACHI 3:8)
    Can we divide the two fractions into equal parts to the soldiers and the people?
    is 1/500 equal to 1/50?
    russel didn’t seem to get what the equal distribution is?
    how can we prove that God never break his tithing laws in Numbers 31:28?
    1/500 is not exactly as 1/50 in the fraction form.
    because 1/10 of God is still in the 1/500 for the soldiers.
    1/500 can be expressed as 1/10 and 1/50.
    So 1/50 to the isaraeilites and 1/50 to the soldiers. Are they equal?
    Now, how can we apply the formula given in Number 18 of 10% + 10% + 10%?

    Let’s combine the two fraction:
    1/50 and 1/50 is equal to 2/100, correct?
    but 100 can be expressed as 10 x 10.

    therefore: 1/10 + 1/10 + 1/10 is equal to 3 tithes.
    now it can be told:

    1/10 to God, 1/10 from soldiers and 1/10 from the israeilite.
    it is really an evident that God never break his commandment in this rare occassion as contrary to what the russels group wants it to. God would never allow this to happen or otherwise our salvation would be at stake.

    willis

    • willis, you said: “1/50 and 1/50 is equal to 2/100, correct?”

      Your math is incorrect.

      1/50 + 1/50 = 2/50 = 4/100

  43. TO TITHE OR NOT TO TITHE?
    ‘CP’ denotes ‘compare passage’

    It needs to be established at the very outset here that this study does not teach against Christians giving into the work of God. It is about how they give – whether spontaneously, or by compulsion. A teaching persists in the contemporary church that Christians under grace in the New Testament are obligated to tithe as the Jews under the law had to tithe in the Old Testament. There are no defining scriptures anywhere in the Bible however, to validate such teaching. Nevertheless the proponents of tithing do use scriptures to argue their position.

    The purpose of this study is to examine those scriptures in context to determine if they really can be used for that purpose. But first let us find out exactly what the tithe is (CP Lev 27:30-34). We see from this that the tithe is a tenth part. Under the law here the Old Testament Jews had to pay ten percent of the produce of the earth and the increase of their herds and flocks to God. It had nothing to do with money then, as it has today. Today the tithe is stipulated as ten percent of one’s gross income which has to be paid to the local church. Those who argue for the tithe use Mal 3:8-11 to teach that the local church, being the place where Christians are spiritually fed, is the New Testament equivalent to the Old Testament storehouse where the tithes had to be taken, and that New Testament Christians who withhold their tithes will be cursed the same as the Old Testament Jews (CP Mal 3:8-11). Nothing that God says here can be applied to New Testament Christians. God rebuked the Jews who were under the law and obligated to tithe. New Testament Christians are not under the law because it has been fulfilled in Christ, and they have been redeemed from its curse (CP Ro 10:4; Ga 3:13-14).

    The tithe is first mentioned in scripture when Abraham tithed to Melchizedec – a priest of the most high God – from the spoils of war after the slaughter of the kings, when Abraham rescued his nephew Lot and the women captives, in Gen 14 (CP Gen 14:18-20). We will learn more about this tithe and how it is represented by the proponents of tithing in the contemporary church a little later when we study He 7. Another argument for tithing is said to be found in Mt 23:23 (CP 23:23). Many in the church believe that by acknowledging the obligation of the Jews to tithe here Jesus is teaching that tithing is also obligatory for New Testament Christians. Tithing is not even the issue though. Jesus was rebuking Scribes and Pharisees who were subject to the law and obligated to tithe anyway. The issue Jesus was addressing was not their tithes, but their neglect of justice, mercy and faithfulness toward others. To practice these was more important then being sticklers for the smallest detail of tithing (CP Mt 23:24-33). This is what Jesus was really leading up to in Mt 23, which precludes V23 from being used to teach that Jesus was sanctioning tithing for New Testament Christians.

    Compulsory tithing under the law in the Old Testament does not translate to giving under grace in the New Testament. The New Testament does not compel Christians, but rather invites them to give generously in response to the needs of others, and as an expression of their love for God (CP 1Cor 16:1-2; 2Cor 8:1-15; 9:1-15; Ga 6:6-8; Jas 2:13-17; 1Jn 3:16-19). We learn from these scriptures that New Testament giving is voluntary, spontaneous and freely given, not from a sense of obligation nor with an intent to merit blessings. Giving is to be seen as a privilege, not an obligation. 1Cor 16:1-2 is used by those who promote tithing to teach that the money the Corinthians were to put aside each Sunday represented the tithe. 2Cor 8:2-4 is used to encourage Christians to tithe, yet in V8 Paul clearly states that he was not commanding the Corinthians to give; he only wanted them to prove the sincerity of their love for their brothers and sisters in Christ. In V7 he calls their giving an act of grace, which is the exact opposite of mandatory tithing. In 2Cor 9:5 Paul stresses the importance of the collection being seen as a willing gift, not as money that has been extorted from them (CP 1Cor 16:3-4 with 2Cor 8:2-4, 7-8 and 9:5). The clear teaching in all these scriptures is that New Testament giving under grace comes from what one has, not from what one does not have. Christians are only expected to give according to their means, and although there must a readiness and eagerness in giving, Christians do not have to run themselves into debt or reduce themselves to poverty level in order to give into God’s work. This is acceptable to God. The issue is one’s willingness to give – not the amount (CP Lu 11:41; 2Cor 8:11-12; 9:7). Christians must not feel bad if they are ever unable to give (CP 2Cor 8:13-15). This teaches that Christians who are well off should meet the needs of those who are not. In this way none will lack, and there will be equality for all, just like God directed the Israelites with the manna in the wilderness (CP Ex 16:16-18).

    There are four things Christians must do in giving: they must give willingly from the heart, they must not give grudgingly; they must not give of compulsion; they must give cheerfully (CP 2Cor 8:12; 9:5, 7). Christians who give what they can to those in need will find that the grace of God furnishes a sufficiency for their own needs, and even more, in order that they may abound in good works for others (CP Psa 41:1-2; Pr 11:24-25; 19:17; 22:9; Ecc 11:1; Lu 6:38; 2Cor 9:6, 8-15). At the heart of all Christian giving is the acknowledgement that God is the creator, the owner, and the giver of all things, and what we give back to God is only a part of what He has given to us in the first place (CP Gen 1:1; Ex 19:5; De 8:7-20; 1Chr 29:10-16; Psa 24:1; 50:10-12; Hag 2:8; Jn 1:1-3; Jas 1:17; 2Pe 1:3). Everything Christians have belongs to the Lord. No one has anything that they had not first received from God.

    Those who hold that tithing is obligatory for New Testament Christians also use He 7: 1-10 to teach that, as Abraham was the antecedent of all New Testament Christians and paid a tithe to Melchizedec, it is incumbent upon all New Testament Christians to tithe. They contend that Abraham was the representative tithe payer of all his seed to come, which Christians are (CP Ga 3:29). Now let us look at He 7:1-10, but in the context of the whole chapter to see what it really means (CP He 7:1-28). When kept in the context of the whole of Ch 7 it is plain to see that tithing, as being obligatory for New Testament Christians, is not being taught in V1-10 at all. Melchizedec is the subject, not Jesus, and tithing is mentioned only in the context of demonstrating the superiority of Melchizedec over Abraham and Levi in the first place, and the superiority of Christ’s eternal priesthood over the temporary Levitical priesthood in the second place, which makes the New Covenant superior to the Old. That is the theme of He 7, not tithing. Tithing is only incidental to proving that the New Covenant, of which Jesus is the mediator, is by far superior to the Old Covenant, and it cannot be made to mean anything else (CP He 7:19, 22-28; 8:6-13; 9:11-15). We also learn in these scriptures that the Old Covenant has been made obsolete in Christ and done way with in its entirety. That was how God designed it: the Old Covenant was only temporary; the New Covenant under Christ is everlasting (CP Hos 2;11 with Ro 3:21-22; 10:4; 2Cor 3;7-14; Ga 3:19-26; 4:21-31; 5:1-4; Eph 2:13-16; He 7:12, 18:22; 8:6-13; 9:8 -15; 10:1-10).The clear teaching in all these scriptures is that the Old Covenant, which includes the law on tithing, has been completely abolished in Christ and has no relevance for New Testament Christians. Yet those who stand for tithing argue that the tithe itself was not abolished, because it was established by Abraham four hundred and thirty years prior to the law when he tithed to Melchizedec in Gen 14:18-20, which we looked at earlier, and therefore it should be carried on by New Testament Christians. They use Ga 3:17-18 as their proof text. Let us see what it says, but also in context (CP Ga 3:13-18). This scripture cannot be used to teach that Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedec should be continued. This has nothing to do with tithing, or Melchizedec. It is about the Covenant God made with Abraham. Paul is using the analogy of God’s Covenant with Abraham, and a legal agreement made between humans, to show that once the parties to it ratify an agreement, it stands forever – it cannot be annulled or voided. What Paul is teaching here is that the blessings God promised Abraham stand forever too. They were not affected by the law in any way (CP Gen 12:1-3, 7; 13:14-18; 15:1-18; 17:4-8; 22:15-18; 26:1-8; 28:1-4, 10-15 with Ro 4;1-25). This is the Covenant God made with Abraham. The purpose of the law was to keep a sinful people in the way of salvation until the seed of Abraham – Christ – came to inherit the promise, and distribute the blessings to all who receive Him by faith as saviour (CP Ga 3:6-16, 19-29). Everyone in Christ, regardless of nationality or sex, is the seed of Abraham and heir of God’s Covenant promise.

    It is patently obvious from the scriptures studied thus far that none of them can be legitimately used to promote tithing as a New Testament Christian obligation. As stated at the outset of this study, there is no defining scripture anywhere in the bible to validate any teaching that it is incumbent upon New Testament Christians to tithe. As also stated previously, compulsory tithing under the law in the Old Testament does not translate to giving under grace in the New Testament. New Testament giving is centred entirety around stewardship – Christians giving of themselves completely to the work of God – which includes their time, their finances, and their material possessions (CP Mt 10:37-39; Mk 8:34-38; Lu 14:26-35).

    None of this is teaching against New Testament Christians giving in to the work of God through their local church. Scriptures are very clear on the subject of giving – only those who sow into the Kingdom will reap the Kingdom benefits (CP Ga 6:6-10). Paul is defining God’s law of sowing and reaping here. It applies to every aspect of the Christian walk: Christians giving of themselves, their finances and their time to others; their financial support of the ministry, their moral behaviour, and their Christian service. Ga 6:9-10 teaches that while ever Christians keep doing good, in spite of the opposition they may encounter, in due course they will reap the fruit of the harvest. And notwithstanding that they are to do good unto all men, they are to be particularly concerned with the well – being of other Christians (CP Mt 25:31-46). All Christian giving has to be as to God, the Christians’ source, for whatever Christians do they are doing it as unto Jesus. Jesus equates Christians’ treatment of those in need with their treatment of Himself: what Christians do for them, they do for Him. The Christian walk is not only a spiritual walk, it must also serve the material needs of others, especially other Christians (CP Jas 2:13-17).

    Here Christians are presented with the real test of their faith. Christians are not justified by works, but because they are justified by faith, they do the works. This proves their consecration to God’s service and confirms their love for God and for each other (CP 1Jn 3:16-19). The only faith that saves is that demonstrated by works out of Christians’ love for God. This scripture is the exact counterpart of Jn 3:16: “Whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life”. 1Jn 3:16-19 is the acid test of Christianity by which Christians know whether they are following the example of God’s love to others. If Christians are not willing to give of material things to others in need, they certainly would not lay down their lives for them. It is not enough that wealth and material possessions are acquired for self-gratification. They must always be made available for the work of God (CP Mt 6:19-24; Lu 12:13-21; 2Cor 9:5-6). Although God’s law of sowing and reaping dictates that blessings will always be returned for generosity, Christians must never give in order to receive. Giving must always be motivated by love.

    It is the duty of all who are taught the word to help provide material support for those who teach the word. Those who minister the word are entitled to live off the word (CP 1Cor 9:7-14; Ga 6:6; 3 Jn 5-8). No workers of the word should have to seek help in any form outside the church. Christians have a duty, which should be seen as a privilege, to contribute to the needs of every worker of the word. They must not be treated like beggars, but received, sent, and supported in a manner worthy of God (CP Mt 10:40-42; Lu 10:3-7; 1Ti 5:17-18). In Mt 10:41-42 Jesus promises that “he that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward”. This teaches Christians how important it is in God’s purposes to receive and support true messengers of the gospel.

    In bringing this study to a close here it needs to be re-stated that while there is extensive teaching on Christians giving into the work of God in the New Testament, there are no scriptures whatever that teach tithing. What they do teach is that Christians belong to God and what they have is held as a trust for him. Their giving is done to help those in need and to advance the Kingdom of God. They are only obliged to give in accordance with their means, out of what they have, and the amount they give is not as important as their willingness to give it. Giving is seen as proof of their love. It is done sacrificially and voluntarily. In their giving Christians sow not only money, but also faith, time and service. To sum up, their giving is characterized by what Paul said in 2Cor 9:7, “every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give, not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.”

    These Studies by Br Val Boyle may be freely distrubuted but not altered.

    (Last Updated 30/07/2005)

  44. Tithing or Giving?

    I came directly to the question of Did Jesus really abolish the tithing laws?

    I research again from the old and new testament if there was a proof of this vital information about the misconception of the tithing laws.

    I myself at first was convinced that this law is no longer in effect nowadays.

    But our mind has a free moral agency given by God to receive and to comprehend of what is the truth.
    When I read in Genesis on how Adam ate the fruit of the tree, he acquired for himself the knowledge of the good and evil despite the warning he receive from God that he would surely die.
    Those five senses that Adam had used to determine the good for himself were of fleshly in nature.
    We have eyes that we used for seeing, nose that smell, taste, hearing, feel or touch when we hurt ourselves.
    These senses had become the very soul of science employed in our educational, political and medical system.

    We can call the science seems as the god of this world, the Satan’s way of life and happiness after almost 6000 years of leading the way to it we are now facing the danger of extinction thru the invention of the nuclear warheads.

    On one push of the button there will be a mass destruction to many times that of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombing.

    This warning became convinced to be a part of what God had foretold to Adam that if he ate that fruit “you will surely die”

    If ever he would choose the tree of life of God that will become our 6th sense in addition to our physical senses, the Holy Spirit.

    We know that man was created and completed on the sixth day of creation and the seventh would be the crown of glory that God bestowed on those who will succeed the race to eternal life. 6 days or 6000 years allotted for human to rule but the seventh would be the Kingdom of God as the start of his millennial rule.

    That is why the tithing as the first step, should not be put into a halt because there would be a significant role in the coming of his government.

    As the former seventh day Adventist I do believe that the millennium or 1000 years mentioned in the Revelation is the seventh day of God when the resurrected saint will inherit the Kingdom of God.

    If the tithing was really the first step to his government, then why Paul encourage the Christian in giving?

    The vital fact in knowing of what is really the truth; first we need to know the atmosphere and environment surrounds the Christendom during Paul’s time in preaching the gospel of God.
    Was he harassed? Or Persecuted?

    In Acts 11:27-29

    27 During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch.

    28 One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.)

    29 The disciples, each according to his ability, decided to provide help for the brothers living in Judea. 30This they did, sending their gift to the elders by Barnabas and Saul.

    ……One of the causes of hardship in Paul’s time is the starvation or famine in which the crops were fully devastated by dry spell.

    According to the tithing rule one is to tithe of one’s increase or harvest.

    But this time it is a negative increase and if the church will only depend on tithes that will probably a collapse of the church in Jerusalem in addition of persecution by the Jews.

    So Paul resort to their finances thru the use of giving and temporarily made to stop the tithing contribution because of this phenomenon climate change.

    In 1 Corinthians 1-3

    1 Now concerning the collection for the saints: As I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

    2 upon the first day of the week, let every one of you lay aside in store as God hath prospered him, so that there need be no gatherings when I come.

    3 And when I come, whomever ye shall approve by your letters I will send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

    …Gatherings of grains? Certainly it could not have been a collection of money because of time frame that Paul has given to the Corinthians and because of miles away from Jerusalem.

    It could have been the gatherings of sacks of grains.

    In Romans 15:25-28

    2 5 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

    26 For it hath pleased those of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints who are at Jerusalem.

    27It hath pleased them verily, and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers in their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

    28 When therefore I have performed this, and have secured to them this fruit, I will come to you on my way to Spain.

    ……..We might also to wonder on why there was a contribution for the saint in Jerusalem in which we should also take it into account.

    Why doesn’t Paul mention tithing in his letters? (from another source)

    Realizing that all Scripture was inspired by God and profitable for doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and that the only Scripture available at the time were the books we know as the Old Testament,
    Paul did not consider it necessary to repeat all of God’s laws in his letters.

    His letters contain answers to specific issues and were not written as a new set of laws to replace God’s instruction found in the earlier books of the Bible.

    Why didn’t Paul take tithes from the Corinthians? Is this the New Testament model for ministers?
    Some in Corinth were among the apostle Paul’s most vicious detractors.

    In 1 Corinthians 9:1-23 he defended his ministerial role and argued that he and Barnabas had the right to receive financial support from the Corinthians for their service to the Church. Even though they had this right,

    Paul explained they didn’t exercise it because they were concerned that it might “hinder the gospel” (verse 12). He didn’t want to be accused of greed or wanting to be supported by the members there. To avoid such accusations, he took no financial support from them.

    To support himself financially, Paul worked as a tentmaker (Acts 18:1-3).

    In 2 Corinthians 11:7-8

    Paul reflects on his decision: “… Was this my offence, that I made no charge for preaching the gospel of God, humbling myself in order to exalt you?
    I robbed other churches—by accepting support from them to serve you” (Revised English Bible).
    He then explains that brethren in Macedonia paid the expenses that he could not meet while in Corinth:
    “If I ran short while I was with you, I did not become a charge on anyone; my needs were fully met by friends from Macedonia; I made it a rule, as I always shall, never to be a burden to you” (verse 9, REB).
    Paul’s decision not to take financial support from the Corinthians was an unusual situation prompted by the accusatory attitudes of others.

  45. Willis please elaborate?
    If tithing is something we must do then who is Paul or any other Christian leader to call for a temporary suspension of a LAW GOD put in place?
    Because of the CIRCUMSTANCES?
    If we should tithe and tithing is an act of FAITH then it shouldn’t matter what is going on in the world around us.
    It denotes our committment and relationship with the ALMIGHTY!
    With this argument, given the current CIRCUMSTANCES in our world it would be fitting to call for a suspension of tithing!
    Howbeitever, when the HOLY SPIRIT prompt us to give whatever amount HE sets on our hearts it is done WILLINGLY, CHEERFULLY, and out of OBEDIENCE and there are blessings attached to OBEDIENCE.
    If one continues to tithe and it is a hardship for him, it is now done out of obligation and not freely which is the true requirement around giving in New Testament scripture.
    When the widow gave all she had it wasn’t a tithe but what she felt in her heart she must do.
    And all the talk about missing blessings for not tithing is a farce because there is no mention of it in the BEATITUDES.
    Giving is a priviledge and a responsibility to further God’s Kingdom; Tithing is a requirement thus the stipulation on the amount 10%.
    The scriptures which teacher’s use to teach tithing is takien out of the context of the passage.
    All in all, we as CHRISTIANS should not be as concerned with the smaller things of the KINGDOM and should put in to practice those things which JESUS taught as HE rebuked the leader’s of that time for doing(Mat. 23;23).
    JESUS did not abolish the law but fullfilled it and there are basically two commandments that Christians should do which some up the LAW and the PROPHETS. LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD….. AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF!!!!!
    When you LOVE GOD you will have no problem opening up your pocket book or wallet to GIVE to HIS work. LOVE should be the driving force for all we do.
    If you purpose in your heart to tithe then tithe you must! But if you feel obligated to tithe and do so out of necessity and grudgingly then DO NOT TITHE because your heart is not with you!
    Giving is a must in the KINGDOM and is THOROUGHLY supported with scripture both Old and New. In fact the first occurence of Man giving to GOD is when Abel and Cane gave. One gift was accepted and the other wasn’t. Abel gave, not a tithe I might add, but of the FIRSTFRUITS and Cane it appears gave out of necessity what He felt he should give. The issue is not the amount but rather HOW it was given! Abel PUT GOD FIRST, Cane gave him the scraps.
    We shouldn’t be the ones doing the determining on what to give GOD but should in this and all matters refer to the HOLY SPIRIT.
    For those of us who have a problem GIVING I would advise talking it over with GOD and allow the HOLY SPIRIT to minister to YOU around this issue!
    Let us focus on the WEIGHTIER matters like LOVE and set aside all VAIN CONTROVERSIES!

  46. there is no question to ask about wheather is it bad to give or to help the poor. But to make the giving in place of the tithing is what astounds me. infact giving is something what the people should posses as one of the wonderful traits of a Christian faith. the earliest time of the apostles encourage every believers to be a cheerful giver but remember they never ever said not to tithe, that is one of the true facts that should be established here. Tithe or the first fruit of God has been implemented even in thetime of adam or prior to the creation of man and the ratification of the old covenant.
    Would you believe that the angels of God do have the tithing system?
    “’thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it in heaven’’
    If the tithing law is one of the will of God then we can assume that the angels in heaven performs the same law as it is on this earth. You may also to wonder that kingdom of Israel at the time of david is a typical type of the kingdom of God in a fleshly form.
    These tithings system has something to do with the government of God. Financing it and at the same time teaching us to be a giver. For the royal kingdom requires a royal tribute.
    When the apostles of Christ started to preach the kingdom of God the only available scriptures at the time was the old testament. If giving will replace the tithing laws then this should be supported by the old testament scriptures just like Christ when he was introduced to the converted jews.
    There are four books of the new testament outline the life and teaching of Christ but even one i could not find that he teaches the early disciples to no more tithes. it is a sad fact that many of you never realize that Jesus Christ is the founder of Christianity. I would say it that Paul will never intend to overwrite the teaching of jesus.
    In the book of acts the economic situation in the Roman world mostly compose of agricultural product in the time of Paul was really devasted by a severe dry spell and they could hardly make a living. Paul wasn’t able to push anyone to tithe for survival of the church. In order for the gospel to move on he resorted their finances to giving. Thus putting into a halt the paying of tithe not because of what Paul’s order it but of themselves the tithes payer. Thats the call of the nature cause them not to tithe. You’re seems to be out of logic here If you are out of job and your country will demand to tax you. How would you react on this?
    If giving is the essence to earn your salvation then you should also consider that the religion of islam when the ramadan time came they chose the day to celebrate their holiday by giving what they can to the poor. it would be unfair for them when Christian deserves the right to be saved when righteousness can be found outside the Christian faith.
    giving is one of the fruit of the holy spirit as what Paul said in his book. this fruit will empower the human spirit to fullfil the laws of God. just love is fullfiling the laws. sad to say if you withhold your tithe, you are robbing God and that transgresses the law of stealing. it goes contrary to the direction where the law is heading.

  47. Willis, no offence but I would say your approach to doctrine of tithing is greatly flawed and lacks scriptural support. You have failed to prove your point using scriptures and have relied on personal opinion instead. Please remember, no scripture is of private interpretation. If you feel in your heart that tithing is something you must do, then go ahead and do it. It would be very wrong to compel others to do same using very flawed theology. If we are to follow your argument, circumcision becomes compulsory because it was practised by Abraham and even Moses before it was made compulsory by the torah. Animal sacrifice too would be very relevant since it had been practised long before Jesus came.

    Please take out time to fully study the difference between the old testament and the new. Scripture says that the LAW (old testament) came through Moses while GRACE AND TRUTH (new testament) came through Jesus. All that are Christ’s are not bound by any law.

    It is evident in scripture that tithing does not apply to the new testament believers, instead we are encouraged to give freely and cheerfully, this I say while running the risk of sounding like a broken record.

    Do not rely on personal opinion i.e. what you think is right or wrong when interpreting scripture I employ you, let the bible speak for itself.

  48. to tony isaac
    my friend, we are discussing the scriptural basis of tithing here and not circumcision. once again i will point out that tithing has nothing to do with the old covenant or animal sacrifices. we read in Genesis on how Abraham respect the priest of the most hight by giving his tithe as tribute long time before Moses ratified the old covenant. it is not an ordinary tenth, but the first tenth of one’s GROSS income. According to the number 18:29 “you must present as the Lord’s portion THE BEST AND HOLIEST part of everything given to you…”
    God is holy but when we say the BEST AND HOLIEST we would place these things on top of God. What do you think would be your opinion? It would mean to me as something which is special and very important and pleasing aroma to Him. It can be comparable into a treasure that something he cherish of. If you tell your wife that she is the prettiest. That would be the best complements you could describe to her because you love her.

    why would he term it THE BEST AND HOLIEST? One reason to consider that in the later times there would be false prophet who will teach that the law has done away. Preaching that Jesus abolished the tithing laws. They replaced the commandment of God by man made commandment like Christmas, new year …. these festivals if you dig to much deeper you will find it hard to believe that it is pagan in origin.

    Another explanation of tithe to be added here is that the tithe, if we pay this thing to God’s first. We are sacrificing the very cherish thing in your heart that will keep you from “idolatry”. This thing is almost identical to what the Lord has done to Abraham by trying his faith if he could sacrifice his only son to him. Anything that blocked the way between you and God is idolatry in nature. One example of idolatry is “too much love of money is the root of all evil” what evilness does Paul speak?

    If the law of tithe is to become a burden or a yoke of bondage. then why would the God of LOVE placed this terrible law on his chosen people? it is really hard to comprehend. Isn’t ? that God on how do you picture him accordingly can be liken into a wild beast devouring his victim without mercy during the old covenant times and came to be tamed only in the new covenant. have you realized that? Can anyone tell me what is God’s master plan on human kind?

  49. Gosh Willis, don’t you read? I only used circumcision as an example in line with your argument.

    Yet again you promptly parade your opinion as God’s word, drawing your own conclusions from scripture rather than let it speak for itself. Did Abraham tithe his personal possessions? Answer is NO. He gave a tithe of the PLUNDER he recovered and gave back the remaining 90% to its original owners. He never paid a tithe on his personal possessions.

    You have also taken numbers 18 : 29 completely out of context. It was a command given to the levites with regards to the tithe the rest of the eleven tribes paid to them and that in itself speaks of the law because the law made a class distinction between those who served in the tabernacle (The tribe of levy) and those who worked (the remaining eleven tribes). This class distinction does not apply in the new dispensation.

    Again I say, your theology is greatly flawed, it is full of personal opinions. You have not backed up all your talk with any scripture. Money was never to be tithed. It was only the farmers that paid tithes on their crops and their livestock and no one else. So this idea of yours that tithe is 10% of one’s gross income, where is it in the bible? Where is it written in the bible that you should tithe money?

    Joe, you ARE right anyway. All this would be of no consequence if one does not have any relationship with God. That is indeed the most important thing.

  50. Tony said: Yet again you promptly parade your opinion as God’s word, drawing your own conclusions from scripture rather than let it speak for itself. …

    My opinion? Wrong!
    When I said “thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven” is that what you called out of context.
    Then if you are wise enough tell me who gave the tithing laws was it God or Moises?
    Again, is tithing a will of God? When we say “as it is in heaven” it was imposed or implemented first in heaven. Correct.

    If the tithing law is the will of God therefore it was imposed or implemented first in heaven. Is there any hard to understand that. Don’t be an idle researcher of nothing just use your logic. The problem is who will perform the tithing laws in heaven? Are there any creatures living aside the human living? The angels ofcourse. And you will probably astound if you read in Ezekiel that the first creature who rule the earth is none other than Lucifer, the arc angel.
    Now here tony I want you to answer for once this question.

    DID JESUS CLEARLY ABOLISH THE TITHING LAWS?

    I Mean it and I will believe you the moment you point a single verse that clearly say that Jesus annulled the laws

    Again this requires a logic to understand.

    In Mathew 23:23” woe to you, teacher of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices – mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law, JUSTICE, MERCY AND FAITHFULLNESS. You should have practice the latter, without neglecting the former. ..”

    Did Jesus encourage the Jews not to tithe anymore?
    What was the latter things to practice first?

    A ns: JUSTICE, MERCY AND FAITHFULLNESS

    What was the former thing not to neglect?

    Ans: I should say, it’s the tithing

    The conclusion of the matter is : the tithing law has three matters in which he instructed the people to be guided by these elements. Because JUSTICE, MERCY AND FAITHFULLNESS are the fruit of the spirit. (Gal 5:22) in fulfilling the law of tithing.

    I hope this statement will satisfy you..

  51. To the last comment made…when Jesus was speaking about not neglecting the former…

    – He had not yet gone to the cross and fulfilled the law.
    **Once he did we are no longer under law but under grace.
    **Technically when he died and rose again we are to give our whole selves to him…not and instructed tenth…This was a practice to keep people in practicde of their faith.

    – He was getting on them for neglecting the weightier matters, which we still do today, like love, etc.
    **Kind of a ‘Look At Me…I pay my tithes’ mentality.

    I am in a family that has studied theology and not one can find evidence that this ONE law…out of all of them…has come over from the Old Testament…

    As a matter of fact if we decided to follow the law instead of believing Jesus fulfilled these this for us then we must take on ALL of the law…sacrificing animals…etc.

    Because we are not a perfect people and Gods will is perfect he sent Christ to stand in the Gap so we are worthy…

    Then Christ commisioned us to take care of the homeless and widows…etc.

    My finances are better served feeding a few lately who have lost their jobs….than to finance the 1.2 million dollar mortgage that people feel they need to worship God.

    Actually…My family will still have church in our home if all churches closed their doors…we do not have to assemble in things that require Debt…think about that…

    God Bless…we are still all family…even if we disagree..

  52. Friend, there’s a saying everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial. Sometimes we confined ourselves to just believe in God and you will be saved because we are under grace and Christ fulfilled the law for us. When we were young we’ve just taken that doctrine without raising any doubt because we trust our ministers or priest. We treated them as our second parents and always love to be called them reverend. We just swallow it no matter what this thing will do to ourselves. Those early years is proved to be an ignorant. Now that we are in millennium era and knowledge has improved in a higher class Technology has risen to more sophisticate. But the doctrine that concerns our belief seems to be left out. The bible was called by some the most misunderstood book. If you give a one problem solving to ten math expert they gonna give you the same answer very quick but if you give one verse in the bible to ten ministers they gonna give you ten different interpretations. I asked you why? How many of us still believe that Jesus broke the Sabbath day? Do we care to look it up in the bible? There are some people like my friend tony said “let the bible speak for itself” he seems did not get what the apostle Paul has said in his book. “lets leave the elementary thing of Christ and go on to maturity” we were being encourage to develop in a Godly character by using the fruit of the spirit. Increase in knowledge by searching and reasoning out from the scriptures. I remember the scene in the Harry Potter movie about the gift he receive from a friend. When he open the gift wrap the book jump and started to bark like a dog not only that it bites too! Well I’m thinking about of what tony said that it sounds to me a little bit idle or lazy. Maybe he just want to tell to let the bible interpreted itself. But what would be our part here? Because it is the people who shall receive the knowledge of God must take the first step and conquer the world of doubt. The bible is just only the reference of the basic knowledge but the improvement must go to the people because it is them who will receive the spirit of God and not the bible. The passage stated: “is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath day?”. The word “lawful” mean to me as recognize. The Sabbath recognized the healing because it is an act of mercy. And mercy is one of the fruit of the spirit (Galatians 5:22) thus mercy fulfil and uphold the law of Sabbath. Get it?

  53. Hi Willis,

    It is quite difficult to follow your discussion, you are all over the place bro. And there you are still doing it; presenting your personal opinion as the word of God. If you believe in the sabbath, good for you. if you believe you should tithe, good for you. If you decide to ignore the grace that comes through Jesus’ death and resurrection, good for you. That is your opinion which you are jolly well entitled to. But you do not have to force it on everybody else!

    It is clear you have not left your adventist background behind and you are trying to mix the old testament and the new testament together. Doing that creates a new religion all together which am afraid ain’t christianity at all neither is it Judaism. No one takes new wine and pours it into an old wine skin, those were Jesus’ words.

    So bro, stop telling us what you think and I would advice that you read the books of Galatians and Romans thoroughly. Yeah, the writer of the book of Hebrews adviced that we leave the ABCs and move on to more mature things. The ABCs have their place. If you are not well grounded in the ABCs, how can you move onto maturity? If you feel am still at the elementary level thats ok, at least it would be better to stay there till one fully understands it than trying to project the image of maturity in the handling of the Word of God whilst one’s actions still show a lot of childishness.

    Gosh! It is getting too personal and thats not healthy at all. I think I will hold my peace from here on.

  54. Friend, don’t misunderstand me. I never force anyone to believe in me. We are here to express how we understand of certain things. If its really came up to be my opinion then i should dare to ask. Is it beneficial?
    Paul instructed us to become matured, to enhance the Godly character from being basic because the bible teaches us only the basic knowledge. After all, the bible is just only the reference for righteousness.

    Take a look at your word “Let the bible speak for itself” is that a sign of matured to me? It’s all most the same as “Let the bible speak for itself while i eat my hamburger on bed” or “Let the bible speak for me while i sleep” . Well I’m not kidding you’re almost make me laugh.
    You said: “stop telling us what you think and I would advice that you read the books of Galatians and Romans thoroughly.”
    Why would i do that? Can you find the verse there that says “Did Jesus clearly say that he abolished the tithing laws” in those books? This is the question that until now you refuse it to answer. I am not satisfied of your alibi just tell me that you are WRONG then everything will go well.

  55. Tony, the real fact of the matter is that Jesus never ever taught his disciples not to tithe. It would be a shocking revelation to find out that Jesus, opposite of what ypu have learned encourages us to tithe as he set us an example in Mathew 23:23.
    You will read on how the Jews corrupted the law of tithing by walking carnally in Luke 18:10. What Jesus had shown on that verse is an example of spiritual obedience for the New Testament teachings.
    The tithing would be acceptable if we are TO be guided by the elements of the spirit of God like JUSTICE, MERCY AND FAITHFULLNESS as the fruit of the spirit in Galatians 5:22.
    Because the gospel has been preach first at the synagogue when Jesus begins his ministry. ( Luke 4:16 ) You may wonder too why he chose the place as his destination instead of the market place. This reinforced the belief that Jesus never was to build the church for the believers. The church came up only as the solution after Jesus WAS rejected and his message!
    If we reverse this event on what if the Jews had accepted his message, do you think the tithing system would be invalidated? If we consider in Mathew 23:23 there is no way that Jesus will never be abided by this law.

    You said: “A new testament cannot begin until the death of a testator.”

    That is true but if he is to be the testator where then is the standard rule for the New Testament? The rule must be found in all four books of the New Testament that layout the life and teaching of Christ because these apostles were instructed first to be the next leader after Christ. So if there is a teaching in Pauls book that abrogate the law of tithing it must be linked up to all four books of the new testament. Very hard task isn’t it?
    Was the priesthood system abolished? It would be an embarrassed for tony if he ever read in Hebrew 7 that the office of Melchizedec has been occupied by Jesus Christ. He is now our High priest forever. You won’t be able to go to the Father except by Jesus is the typical standard of levitical system where the people were ban go closer to the altar of God except the lev. Priest.

  56. Willis,
    I’ve been following this post and watching your statements. I’ve wanted to add to this but frankly your English is so broken I can hardly understand your train of thought (That’s my problem not yours). However your last reply, if I understood you right, has to be answered according to the scripture that you say you live by. It has to be answered also, by what the Jews today do in regard to tithing (after all they are the ones we owe thanks to for the word of God coming to the Gentiles)
    I’m only answering your last post and that’s mainly because you insulted Tony by demanding he admit he is wrong and all will be well? !!!!

    First – The bible is not just a reference for righteousness. Jesus himself said that you search the scriptures and think that they give you life when in fact, the scripture speaks of Christ and reveals Christ and His work of redemption and also that life is found in Him not in the Law.

    John 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me,
    John 5:40 and you will not come to Me that you might have life.

    Those two verses go with these also:
    John 1:1-4
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    He was in the beginning with God.
    All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
    In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

    John 1:14
    And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.

    If the scripture were only a reference for righteousness then the Jews of Jesus day, and our day, would be more righteous than some gentile Christians, and I am speaking as someone with Jewish blood in him and have known a lot of Jews both Christian and non-Christian ones.
    Yes, the scripture does say thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path and wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way, by taking heed to your word.
    However, the words of Jesus take precedent over legalistic interpretations of the word of God. The word is a lamp only if it leads to a true revelation of Christ and His ministry, it can only cleanse if it leads first to a revelation of Christ and His blood covenant with humanity.

    #2- I’m not sure if I understand you right on this one, but, here goes. Your right in saying, Jesus himself did not say anything in the book of Romans or Galatians about tithing, but then He did not personally say anything in any of the New Testament books except the first chapter of Acts and the Book of the Revelation of Christ. Should we throw out the whole New Testament because Jesus did not personally speak in those books? What about the book of Hebrews?
    (Observation: you seem to fail to realize that it is the Spirit of Christ that inspired all the scripture)

    But seriously, Romans and Galatians say more about circumcision than tithing. Between tithing and circumcision, the one that has the most spiritual weight and meaning is circumcision. Circumcision was given to Abraham as a sign – a seal of the covenant that God had made with Abraham and his seed.

    Gen 17:9-14
    9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
    10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
    11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
    12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
    13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
    14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
    (KJV)
    I want you to notice the last five words. If they weren’t circumcised then they were breaking the covenant. That’s strong and can you see now why the Jews in Paul’s day were getting so angry and why it was so hard for them to give this up. To them Paul was telling them to break the covenant with God and follow a New Covenant – which is exactly what Paul was saying.

    Now just because someone talks about something does not mean that it is a law we are to follow otherwise circumcision would still be a law because Paul spoke more on that than on tithing. Nowhere in the New Testament are we commanded to tithe, even though at times it appears that way. I can hear you now referring to Jesus telling the Pharisees

    Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    But the gospels are actually part of the old covenant ministry which the Pharisees and Jesus were living under. The four gospels could not be part of the New Covenant because Christ had not yet died and shed His blood.

    Heb 9:16-17
    16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
    17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

    Just because tithing is mentioned in the New Testament does not mean it is a binding law on New Testament Christians.

    #3 You seem to have failed to understand who was commanded to receive tithes and the purpose of the tithe.
    First of all, only the Levites were allowed to receive tithes under the law. Not the tribes of Judah, Reuben, Simeon, Joseph, Gad or the others.

    Numbers18: 21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

    This is still true today. I challenge you to call any rabbi and ask them if they collect tithes. If they’re honest they’ll tell you no. Even if they are of the tribe of Levi, they do not collect tithes because there is no temple for them to offer blood sacrifice, which is part of the purpose of the tithe. The two purposes of the tithe were
    #1 It was an inheritance for the Levites for the
    service of the temple.
    #2 It was to be shared with the poor

    Deut 26:12
    12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

    As a side note: I know of no ministry that collects tithes and then share it with the poor, widow, and fatherless, do you?

    The Levites were given the tithe for their service in the temple Numbers 18:21
    What does that mean?
    They were called and chosen by God to offer the blood sacrifices, the meal offerings and to keep the tabernacle/temple. The tenth given to them was to feed them and give them something to offer to the Lord. If they received no compensation then there would be no one to offer up the blood, which was a type of Christ’s sacrifice, for the people. Without the blood there was no forgiveness or remission of sins. And if they were in their sins they were under the curse.
    This is what the famous scripture in Malachi 3 is saying. If you read Mal 3 with Joel, you will understand that without a priest to offer up the blood there was no atonement.

    Joel 1:9-13
    9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD’S ministers, mourn.
    10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.
    11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.
    12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.
    13 Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.
    (KJV)

    They needed these crops in order to offer up the sacrifices according to the commandment of the Lord

    Ex 29:39-40
    39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:
    40 And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering.
    See also Lev.23:13; Numbers 15:5&10;
    and get a free program called Bible Explorer and look up the rest yourself.
    Without the wine, oil, wheat, corn they could not and dare not offer a blood sacrifice or they would be breaking the commandment.

    Finally, we get to Jesus. He has abolished all the sacrificial system since He has fulfilled all that was written in the law and prophets. And, since the tithes were to support the Levitical priesthood, fulfilling the commandments concerning the offerings, then Jesus’ sacrifice has done away with the tithe as a binding law. If someone wants to give a tenth of their income to support their church there’s no sin in that, but, it’s not a law that is binding upon them just as Abrahan gave a tenth after he was blessed and without compulsion.

    The only ones allowed to receive tithes were the Levites, and according to the New Testament, there has been an eternal change of the priesthood. It has shifted from the Levite to those of the tribe of Judah because that is which tribe Jesus is from.

    Heb 7:5
    5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

    Heb 7:11-15
    11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
    13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
    14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
    15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

    Now I can hear you saying, aha ! Jesus is like Melchisedec and He received tithes of Abraham.
    You’re right he did receive tithes but he did not command him to tithe nor is there any record of Abraham ever tithing to him or anyone else again. Furthermore, Abraham tithed after the bread and wine. Sound familiar? See above.
    Jesus is compared to Melchisedec for other reasons such as King of righteousness and peace, having no beginning or ending and being greater than Abraham etc.
    What about ministers receiving tithes today?
    Some have said that we are the modern spiritual Levites.
    That’s a joke. It’s a joke base on scriptural understanding and it’s a joke to rabbis today. If we are a part of any priesthood, it is that of Jesus who is of the tribe of Judah, and since we are one with Him and are His spiritual offspring then that makes us a part of the tribe of Judah also, which is why we are to offer the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving with our lips.

    The rabbis today will tell you that if anyone but a Levite collected tithes they would be sinning because there is no temple to offer the blood sacrifice. If anyone of the Jewish community gave tithes they would be sinning since there is no temple or priesthood to take the tithe to.
    Now that is a Modern day Jewish belief about tithing according to the law. That is not a New Testament practice. Even if Israel is successful in rebuilding a temple, no Christian is to go and offer those sacrifices or they would be trampling on the blood and sacrifice of Jesus according to the book of Hebrews.

    Finally brother your insult of Tony is uncalled for and smacks of self – righteousness.

    I’ve included some links to some websites for your study. But without a revelation of who Christ is and what he came to do it’s not going to help you, so call out to the Lord for that revelation and he will deliver you from living under the law and it’s curse.
    If you are content to live under the law and it’s curse that is your choice. I’m quite content living under the New Covenant favor of God through Jesus Christ

    http://www.awildernessvoice.com/RethinkTithe2.htm

    http://www.askelm.com/resources/qryutiln.asp

  57. Willis
    Update: my post is a reply to your post at 9:47am. you put another one on before I could post mine.

  58. friend, i’m still alive thanks to God.

  59. Willis: Another update and response to you 11:02 pm post

    Brother- with all due respect where did you study scripture at? You have completely misinterpreted Luke 18:10
    Jesus was showing that paying tithes along with other acts of obedience does not make one righteous. The poor sinner who asked for mercy went away righteous not the bragging self righteous tither.
    The most unbeleiveable thing you say is that the church came up as a solution after Jesus WAS rejected and His message !
    That shows a complete lack of understanding of the scripture both old and new.

    Eph 1:3-4
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Notice it says that HE CHOSE US BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. That does not sound like plan B to me. Also Romans quotes Hosea 1:10 referring to Gentile Christians:

    Romans 9:25-26
    As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
    26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    Also in Acts 15 James uses the old covenant to confirm that both Jew and Gentile are now a part of the Tabernacle of David, i.e the church, that God is restoring

    Acts 15:12-17
    12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
    13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
    14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

    Mind you, these are all scripture quoted from the old covenant, not to mention Paul comparing the church to Mount Zion in Hebrews
    The fact is the Church is made up of Jew and Gentile and has been Gods plan for all eternity.

    I’m having a hard time following your thoughts on the rest but, Jesus did say this in the Gospels
    That the children of the king were free from paying the Temple tax.

    Matt 17:24-27
    And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
    25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
    26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.
    27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

    I know that is different than the tithe but it does beg this question. If we are children of King Jesus and we are free and are to do as he did then can you show me where Jesus actually paid tithe in the Gospels?

    Finally, if you are comparing Jesus to Melchizedec you must be also comparing us to Abrahams example which leads to this conclusion. Melchezidec did not command Abraham to tithe and when He finally did tithe, He only tithed once and no more.
    If you can show me where Abraham tithed more than once I’ll follow up on that and see if it’s right. But I don’t think you can.
    You can re-read my previous response to you about Jesus and Melchizedec

    Dear Brother I believe you love the Lord and want to serve Him, but, you are way off in your interpertation of the scripture – and not just those on tithing. If you weren’t insulting people I probably wouldn’t even respond to you but at some point you have to be confronted with the truth.
    The truth is this: New Covenant Christians are not obligated to tithe. If they want to offer ten percent freely as Abraham did then that is their choice. Again I refer you to my previous post as to the purpose of the tithe and who was legally supposed to collect it and what it was used for.

  60. friend, what is your point?

  61. friend, let’s put these verses into one point.because this will lead into misinterpretation and sometime loses the meaning of our discussions. to tell you that Paul was a victimm of misrepresentation. Did Paul build the gentile church away from the Jewish custom? a lot of you may somewhat think the same as the other.

    In Romans 11:17-21
    V17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
    V18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
    V19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
    V20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
    V21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

    how would you illustrate: “do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.”

    the grafted wild olive shoot symbolize the Gentile born
    while the natural olive branch is Israelites.

    what does the scripture say: …though a wild olive…now share the nourishing sap from the root.
    the primary food of the tree is water. it enters from the root and runs trhu the cambium. from the stem right thru the branch until it reach thru the grafted where the wild olive tree is grafted in. just remember we are only a grafted branch. my friend what if the water symbolize as the word of God? its not deniable that we were nourishes by the word of God. correct? and the word is written in the bible. what does Paul said: “all the scriptures were profitable for doctrine…” only the old testament scriptures were available that time. is the tithing law included in the scriptures? therefore the Gentiles received the same commandment as the Israelites do.

    i dont see the tithe of God mentioned in Mathew 17. it would be weird if your finances in your church comes from the mouth of the fish. if you are comfused my friend dont try to interpret it.

  62. further more in Hebrew 7:6 …yet he collected a tenth from Abraham. that is the proof the tithe is obligation.

    Abraham tithes only once? where did you find it my friend? now listen Abraham lived and died at the age of 120. does the scripture reflects the life of Abraham in detail? i suppose the whole of the book in your library will not contain the story of him. Genesis is only the summarisation of origin of man and the covenant. if you want to insist the proof then tell me in Gen 7:2 “take with you seven of every clean animal …and two of every unclean animal.

    question does the Genesis tell which animal is clean and which animal is unclen? ofcourse Noah knows because he received the instruction directly from God. then why it is not recorded in Genesis?

    if you can figure out where in Genesis you can find these animals i will show to you how many times does Abraham tithes.

  63. Dan said: The most unbeleiveable thing you say is that the church came up as a solution after Jesus WAS rejected and His message !
    That shows a complete lack of understanding of the scripture both old and new.

    Dan my friend, i’m just requiring your logical explaination here.

    What if the Jews accepted HIS message?

    Does the tithing system will go to no avail?

    i am convinced that Mathew 23:23 is the commandment for the new testament teachings.

  64. Lets analyze:
    Mathew 17:22 “is it right to pay taxes to Caesar?”
    “…then he said to them give to caesar to caesar’s and to God to God’s.”

    how do you understand this statement of Jesus?

    does he encourage the Jews not to tithe?

    each of the subject represent the kingdom in which he ruled respectively. one is physical and one is spiritual.

    financing laws at that time were fully understood by the Jews. both tax and tithes were in full force.

    the analysis of the statement: “Give to caesar and to God”

    the word “Give” mentioned only once that gives the meaning if we pay to Caesar then it goes the same to God. if its an obligation then it goes likewise to others. if its a tax then it would be a tithe.

    there is one interesting that we found here that God and his kingdom requires the tithe for his administration. a Royal kingdom requires a Royal tribute.
    so Jesus demonstrate the analogy of these figures.
    are you learning now?

  65. Willis,
    Either my first post was too long or I forgot to post it. I’ll try again here in case I forgot to post it. This was a response to your post of 9:47am to Tony

    Willis,
    I’ve been following this post and watching your statements. I’ve wanted to add to this but frankly your English is so broken I can hardly understand your train of though (That’s my problem not yours). However your last reply, if I understood you right has to be answered according to the scripture that you say you live by and also by what the Jews today do in regard to tithing (after all they are the ones we owe thanks to for the word of God coming to the Gentiles) I’m only answering your last post and that’s mainly because you insulted Tony by demanding he admit he is wrong and all will be well? !!!! Pretty arrogant, here is my best attempt to follow and answer your last reply

    First – The bible is not just a reference for righteousness. Jesus himself said that you search the scriptures and think that they give you life when in fact, the scripture speaks of Christ and reveals Christ and His work of redemption and that life is found in Him not in the Law.

    John 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me,
    John 5:40 and you will not come to Me that you might have life.

    Those two verses go with these also:
    John 1:1-4
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    He was in the beginning with God.
    All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
    In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

    John 1:14
    And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.

    If the scripture were only a reference for righteousness then the Jews of Jesus day and our day would be more righteous than the gentile Christians, and I am speaking as someone with Jewish blood in him and have known a lot of Jews both Christian and non-Christian ones. Yes, the scripture does say thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path and wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way, by taking heed to your word.
    However, the words of Jesus take precedent over legalistic interpretations of the word of God. The word is a lamp only if it leads to a revelation of Christ, it can only cleanse if it leads first to a revelation of Christ and His blood covenant with humanity.

    #2- I’m not sure if I understand you right on this one but here goes. Your right Jesus himself did not say anything in the book of Romans or Galatians about tithing, but then He did not personally say anything in any of the New Testament books except the first chapter of Acts and the Book of the Revelation of Christ. Should we throw out the whole New Testament because Jesus did not personally speak in those books? What about the book of Hebrews? But seriously, Romans and Galatians say more about circumcision than tithing. Between tithing and circumcision, the one that has the most spiritual meaning is circumcision. Circumcision was given to Abraham as a sign a seal of the covenant that God had made with Abraham and his seed.

    Gen 17:9-14
    9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
    10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
    11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
    12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
    13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
    14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
    (KJV)
    I want you to notice the last five words. If they weren’t circumcised then they were breaking the covenant. That’s strong and can you see now why the Jews in Paul’s day were getting so angry and why it was so hard for them to give this up. To them Paul was telling them to break the covenant with God and follow a New Covenant – which is what Paul was saying.
    Now just because someone talks about something does not mean that it is a law we are to follow otherwise circumcision would still be a law because Paul spoke more on that than on tithing. Nowhere in the New Testament are we commanded to tithe. I can hear you now referring to Jesus telling the Pharisees

    Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    But the gospels are actually part of the old covenant ministry. It could not be part of the New Covenant because Christ had not yet died and shed His blood

    Heb 9:16-17
    16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
    17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

    Just because tithing is mentioned in the New Testament does not mean it is a binding law on New Testament Christians.

    #3 You seem to have failed to understand who was commanded to receive tithes and the purpose of the tithe.
    First of all only the Levites were allowed to receive tithes. Not the tribes of Judah, Reuben, Simeon, Joseph, Gad or the others.

    Numbers18: 21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

    This is still true today. I challenge you to call any rabbi and ask them if they collect tithes. If they’re honest they’ll tell you no. Even if they are of the tribe of Levi, they do not collect tithes because there is no temple for them to offer blood sacrifice, which is part of the purpose of the tithe. The two purposes of the tithe were
    #1 It was an inheritance for the Levites
    #2 It was to be shared with the poor

    Deut 26:12
    12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

    As a side note: I know of no ministry that collects tithes and then share it with the poor, widow, and fatherless, do you?

    The Levites were given the tithe for their service in the temple Numbers 18:21
    What does that mean? They were called and chosen by God to offer the blood sacrifices, the meal offerings and to keep the tabernacle/temple. The tenth given to them was to feed them and give them something to offer to the Lord. If they received no compensation then there would be no one to offer up the blood, which was a type of Christ’s sacrifice, for the people.
    This is what the famous scripture in Malachi 3 is saying. If you read Mal 3 with Joel, you will understand that without a priest to offer up the blood there was no atonement. Also, without the blood being offered up to God they were under a curse.

    Joel 1:9-13
    9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD’S ministers, mourn.
    10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.
    11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.
    12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.
    13 Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.
    (KJV)

    They needed these crops in order to offer up the sacrifices according to the commandment of the Lord

    Ex 29:39-40
    39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:
    40 And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering.
    See also Lev.23:13; Numbers 15:5&10; and get a free program called Bible Explorer and look up the rest yourself. Without the wine, oil, wheat, corn they could not and dare not offer a blood sacrifice or they would be breaking the commandment.

    Finally, we get to Jesus. He has abolished all the sacrificial system since He has fulfilled all that was written in the law and prophets. And, since the tithes were to support the Levitical priesthood, fulfilling the commandments concerning the offerings, then Jesus’ sacrifice has done away with the tithe as a binding law. If someone wants to give a tenth of their income to support their church there’s no sin in that but it’s not a law that is binding upon them.
    First, the only ones allowed to receive tithes were the Levites, and according to the New Testament, there has been an eternal change of the priesthood. It has shifted from the Levite to those of the tribe of Judah because that is which tribe Jesus is from.

    Heb 7:5
    5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

    Heb 7:11-15
    11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
    13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
    14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
    15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

    Now I can hear you saying aha Jesus is like Melchisedec and He received tithes of Abraham.
    You’re right he did receive tithes but he did not command him to tithe nor is there any record of Abraham ever tithing to him or anyone else again. Furthermore, Abraham tithed after the bread and wine. Sound familiar? See above. Jesus is compared to Melchisedec for other reasons such as King of righteousness and peace, having no beginning or ending and being greater that Abraham etc.
    If we are a part of any priesthood, it is that of Jesus who is of the tribe of Judah, which is why we are to offer the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving with our lips.

    The rabbis today will tell you that if anyone but a Levite collected tithes they would be sinning because there is no temple to offer the blood sacrifice. If anyone of the Jewish community gave tithes they would be sinning since there is no temple or priesthood to take it to. Now that is a Modern day Jewish belief about tithing according to the law. That is not a New Testament practice, even if Israel is successful in rebuilding a temple no Christian is to go and offer those sacrifices or they would be trampling on the blood and sacrifice of Jesus according to the book of Hebrews.

    Finally brother your insult of Tony is uncalled for and smacks of self – righteousness.

    I’ve included some links to some websites for your study. But without a revelation of who Christ is and what he came to do it’s not going to help you, so call out to the Lord for that revelation and he will deliver you from living under the law and it’s curse.
    If you are content to live under the law and it’s curse that is your choice. I’m quite content living under the New Covenant favor of God through Jesus Christ

    http://www.awildernessvoice.com/RethinkTithe2.htm

    http://www.askelm.com/resources/qryutiln.asp

  66. Willis
    I have no Idea what you are talking about. I scanned through the post too quickly and saw that my original post was okay and then I added it a second time. I’m going to drop out of this discussion for now because there seems to be some sort of cultural communication gap between us. You asked me what is my point and then you seemed to assume that I am boasting against the branches? You also asked me what if the Jews had accepted His message? The fact is they did accept His message. The first 30 to 50 years of the church was composed of almost all Jews. That is a Historical fact that you can’t escape, although I suspect you will also misinterpret that. And how you get that Abraham was obligated to tithe or we are obligated to tithe from Melchizedec is beyond me. I was responding to all the different points you had written to Tony. If anyone is jumping around all over the place it’s you dear friend. I don’t know it’s extremely difficult to follow your train of thought and you seem to misinterpret what others are trying to communicate to you, as well as the scripture. So, for the sake of keeping peace I’m going to quit responding to you. It would be better if we were face to face and had our bibles and a concordance and could see each others reaction, but that is not likely to happen in this lifetime.
    You still have not convinced me that Jesus commanded anyone in the N.T. to tithe and i agree with Tony, you seem to put a lot of your own opinions into the scripture. Opinions that are based on the traditions of man and cannot be proven either by sound historical interpretation of the scripture nor by Jewish or Church History.
    Peace I’m out

  67. you said:”You also asked me what if the Jews had accepted His message? The fact is they did accept His message. The first 30 to 50 years of the church was composed of almost all Jews. That is a Historical fact that you can’t escape. ”

    YOU ARE A LIAR! if they’ve accepted his message he wont be handed down to be crucified. my friend you’re pretending to be a historian and still do not know that the Jews of today dont want Jesus to be their saviour. for the proof you got to check your bible and compare to their bible you will find the missing one. what is it? ofcourse its the new testament!

  68. it’s a total disappointment to hear from these two self-claimed Christians about on how they picture Christ thru their posted comments. they had this belief that Jesus came on this earth to abolish the law of God and set up the new commandment in place of the old and they at it again. what was Jesus said in Mathew 5:17
    “Do not think that i come to destroy the law or the prophet, i have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them”
    How many religion had claimed that Jesus abolish the law? but they still believe of what they want to believe. When Jesus said i did not abolish it. These two will say yes he came to abolish it.
    Now check very carefully of what the remaining statement of Jesus. (Mathew 5:18)
    v18 “I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH DISAPPEAR, NOT SMALLEST LETTER, NOT THE LEAST STROKE OF A PEN, WILL BY ANY MEANS DISAPPEAR FROM THE LAW UNTIL EVERYTHING IS ACCOMPLSHED.”
    if that is the law required for him at the cross, why would he say “UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH DISAPPEAR” this statement is a clear indication that the law of olds will by no means disappear. the earth is still revolving to its axis and the sky has no sign of the end but the commandment of God has long been disappear thru their(Dan and Tony) midst. It’s no wonder why they are confused in many ways because they received the spirit of stupor instead of wisdom.
    but wait theres another more:
    v19 “anyone who breaks one of the commandment and teach other to do the same will be called least in the Kingdom of heaven.”
    bad for them they not only did break it but abolished it.
    v20 “For i tell you unless your righeousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of God”
    what is righeousness?
    Romans 2:13
    “For it is not those who hear the law who are righeous in God’s sight but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righeous”
    therefore in order to enter the kingdom of God we must obey the law of God.
    what further proof that the law of olds still in exist?
    Luke 18:21
    v18 “…what must i do to inherit life?..
    v20 ” ..you know the commandments. do not commit adulter…”
    …what was the rich man respond to Jesus…
    v21 “ALL THESE I HAVE KEPT SINCE I WAS A BOY””
    what does the ststement imply?
    the rich man is a Jew and raised to the custom of olds. the laws of God which is under the old covenant.
    Now that you’ve testified that the laws has never been abolished in contrast to the statement of these two children of God who claim that it is done away. shame on them!
    most of the doctrines that these churches teach were based in Pauls writing. some of the writings were seems very hard to understand even the apostle Peter fell victim on it.
    2Peter3:16
    “…his letter contains something that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other scriptures, to their own destruction.”
    it’s no wonder why they’ve still cling on to their belief about giving that’s because they were deceived not the fault of Pauls writing but thru their being ignorant. ignoring sound teachings.

  69. Willis
    I bless you and forgive you, may the Lords peace be yours in heart,soul,body and mind

    Dan

  70. Willis,
    Not to argue but Matthew,Peter,John,Mary,Mary magdelene, Thomas, Joseph of Armithea, Some of the Pharisees, and the other disciples who were all Jews accepted His message and person. They did not crucify him. They were the ones who started the early Christian Church. This is my last response, I wish you the blessings and fullness of the Lords salvation. I do sincerely wish upon you the Lords peace. I have no desire to get into a insult match, that is not the Spirit of love and Christ at work.
    I’ll pray for you and would hope you would do the same for me.
    Bless you in Jesus name.

  71. dear friend, the vital key in unlocking the mystery of the scriptures is to search the God’s masterplan for Mankind. it can be found somewhere in the scriptures and you need to dig it to much deeper until you reach to the bottom of it. it is like a hunting teasure that need to be hunted. once you found it grab it at once, take it home and eat it. you will experience a high level of learning and expose the evilness of your religion. it would be a shocking to learn that you have been deceived by your acquired doctrine. one more to add, everything in Paul’s writing that seems confused to you, will be clearer as the time passes by.

    you know friend if we let the errorness of your doctrine contols your belief. you will not be able to understand why are we here? why God imposes the two covenant? what is the purpose of creation? what was the purpose of sabbath? who really owns the tithing law? who is God? what is Man? what is the kingdom of God? where do we go after here? who is the beast of the apocalypse? what would be happened to the United State of America in the coming centuries? who and what is the 666? are we in the last days? can we survive in this economic crises? and many more.

    Friend, can you answer me now What is God’s master plan for Mankind?

  72. very clever tony, you send your pet to defeat me, but your DOG doesn’t bite!

  73. Hey willis,
    I almost got sucked into your spirit of strife. I had this whole response to you and your insults but right in the middle of that the Holy Spirit reminded me not to return railing for railing. So once again I will obey the commandment to love and bless and say I bless you and forgive you and pray the peace of Jesus Christ to overtake you.

  74. what proof do we find that the tithing system has still been in effect?

    Ephesians 2:19-20

    v19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household,

    v20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

    …or on the base. the prophets mentioned is refering to moises work, the torah or the first 5 books.

    this also will conform to the time when Paul preach the gospel and the available scriptures were the law of moises, the prophets and the psalms (Luke 2:44)

    the new testament book was made available in 150 AD after apostles death. from the time of 33 AD up to 150 AD, the only available book was the old testament.

    so the church’s teachings accordimg to Paul should be based in the old testament book.

    does the old testament support the abolishing of the tithing law?

  75. Dan said: “Brother- with all due respect where did you study scripture at? You have completely misinterpreted

    Luke 18:10
    Jesus was showing that paying tithes along with other acts of obedience does not make one righteous. The poor sinner who asked for mercy went away righteous not the bragging self righteous tither.”

    i felt so sorry to Dan that he almost lost the meaning of his word.

    the difference between Mathew 23:23 and Luke 18:10 is in the manner of obeying the law.
    in Mathew 23:23 He was giving the people advice to obey the Law of tithing in spiritual way by using the element of the spirit thus we call it the spiritual obedience,

    while in Luke 18:10 he speaks of on how the Jews walk in the law CARNALLY.

    Carnal-pertaining to or characterized by the flesh or the body, its passions and appetites; sensual: carnal pleasures.

    the conclussion: in Mathew 23:23 is the spiritual obedience while in Luke 18:10 is the physical obedience.

  76. Dan said:”Not to argue but Matthew,Peter,John,Mary,Mary magdelene, Thomas, Joseph of Armithea, Some of the Pharisees, and the other disciples who were all Jews accepted His message and person. They did not crucify him. They were the ones who started the early Christian””

    my golly! how old are you? you seem didn’t get it right, my friend. since when did i start to write that Jesus is not a Jew?

    THE JEWS THAT I AM REFERING TO ARE THOSE IN THE
    HIERACHY! like Caiapas and Herod.

  77. Dan said:”You still have not convinced me that Jesus commanded anyone in the N.T. to tithe and i agree with Tony”

    you’re still turning your blind eyes to Mathew 23:23 which tells the new testament laws.

    Do you still beleive in Jesus word? if you say “i don’t”

    then stop praying to Jesus! it would be a waste.

    • Ok guys, this discussion is getting out of hand. I am all for disagreeing, but when you get to the point of name-calling, we have crossed the line. Need I remind you of 1 cor 13… Willis, I deleted you last comment, because it was completely inappropriate – I would like to leave these comments open to facilitate the conversation, but if I see any more of this I will close off the comments – deal?

      ” 1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

      4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. “

  78. Bob,
    I am cool with your decision and on my part I’m sorry. I don’t normally get into discussions like this, I guess I let the old man pop out. I do want to say that I don’t despise willis but sincerly do pray for God to bless him and give him peace

  79. sorry Bob, i know it’s terrible thing on what i have done. i posted it almost late but in the morning i realize that it’s not ok and it’s not constructive at all. i felt it the same way to other guys to Dan and Tony. sorry guys i’m just a human to commit it. God bless to every one and don’t worry i’ll take this to my heart. thanks Bob

    • You know you are right, we are all just human and can get carried away sometimes – I appreciate your repentant heart – Personally, I think that is far more valuable to God than someone who never makes a mistake in the first place. So anyway, like I mentioned before, I am all for the discussion, we just have to keep it grounded in love – thanks guys

  80. Hey Bob,

    I apologise too. And to you Willis.

    God bless you all

  81. Dave Gooley

    Tithing and giving are completely different from each other. Tithing was required according to the law and didn’t exist before the law, even with Abrahim and Yaqoob (the actual names of the patriarchs). Abrahim gave a tenth, not a tithe, of the spoils of war and the remaining 90% to the people. Yaqoob made a deal with YAHUAH and said he would give a tenth, not a tithe, of all he had if he were to return to his father’s house, which he returned about 20 years later and there was no mention of him fulfilling his declaration. The tithe was a tax to compensate the priests for their duties and to feed the hungry. Also, there were 3 requirements that had to be present to tithe. First, the temple must exist. This hasn’t existed in centuries and you cannot substitute the temple with a house of fellowship. Second, tithing was only done by farm or herd owners. If the tithe was redeemed, meaning paid with cash, there was a 20% surcharge to discourage this practice. Third, the tither must be a resident citizen of Yisra’el. Most people live nowhere near Yisra’el, let alone own any type of farm land or herds. However, the real problem is where are you going to give your tithes since there is no temple and the Levitical priesthood was transferred to the Messiah?

    As for the Messiah, whose Name is really Yahushua in Ibrit, He was only confirming the law when he supposedly supported tithing. He came to fulfill the law, yet have you ever read anywhere that Yahushua or even His disciples tithed once in their lives? This is because none of them owned farm land or herds.

    Finally, I am not saying you shouldn’t give, but please understand the difference with tithing and giving. Any NT verse(s) relating to giving does not refer to tithing. I’m not saying you can’t determine a tithe percentage as your dedication of giving, because the amount is based on what your heart is led to give, not because some preacher said you have to be obedient (to the preacher and his or her expenses is usually the case). If anyone uses the justification, “Well how else are the bills going to get paid?”, that person has just turned faith into a business and effectively became part of the stigma of why non-believers despise believers as the non-believers perceive believers as greedy financial opportunists that fleece the flock to avoid working. If you have to use an excuse like this to justify tithing, you are no better than the Pharisees that were part of the money changer scheme. They were the ones robbing YAHUAH, not the people.

  82. to mr. dave
    the scritpures does not teach to compel anyone to tithe of his income, not even jesus is forcing us to obey him. just remember this thing that God created in us a mind to think freely and never interfere in anyone’s choises made by them, not even adam when he choses to become satan’s property. God had shown only the way to eternal salvation and damnation for the people to choose from. when the covenant was made ratified it is naturaly for both party to become commited on what was stipulated in the cov. the same you will find in the new cov. when jesus spoke of “if you want to enter life keep my commandment”. it can be liken into a contract in which it stipulates the performance and the conditional promises upon performance.

    but the tithe was not a part of the covenant. to prove of my claimed can be found in Mal 3:8 “Will a MAN rob God?” the verse does not say Israelites or the Jews but MAN which is in GENERAL form. the same Man can be found in Genesis “Let us make MAN according to our likeness” and therefore excluded from the old cov. that was ratified and recorded in Exodus at very long time span.
    so if the old covenant disannulled it does not mean that the tithe will likewise disappear. this is liken as if the tithe exist only as long as human is living. we are bound into it because we belong to a human group or not unless we decladred ourselves as animal where Charles Darwin wrote about his theory of evolution.

    some question to be considered:
    1. whats the difference between tithe and giving?

    tithe is the commandment of God and while giving is an essential element of the holy spirit of God.
    the holy spirit of God was rendered as our “comforter” and not to substitute the tithing laws. it empowers our mind to obey the laws heartily.

    2. does the tithe cease to exist because the temple was abolished?

    it is true that the physical temple has been thrown down and abolished during the siege of the Roman empire. but what was the scripture said:

    read the revelation 21:22
    v22 ” I did not see the temple in the city, because the Lord God and it’s lamb are it’s temple”.

    in some of the writings of Paul (do the research) where you can find that the church of christ is the temple of God and therefore the tithe is entitled to it’s recipient.

    3. does abraham give his tenth of his spoil and not considered it as tithe?

    according to Hebrew 7:5

    “Now the law requires the descendant of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people that is there brothers even though their brothers are descended from abraham.”

    …read very carefully of what the remainder of the sentence.

    v6 “this man however did not trace his descent from levi, YET he collected a tenth from abraham and blessed him…”

    …if Levi’s tenth can be rendered as tithe therefore abrahams tenth can also be rendered as tithe too.

    v10 “because when melchizedec met abraham, levi was still in the body of his ancestor”.

    what does Paul mean of what he wrote?

    Levi wont be able to collect the tenth from abraham because he was not yet born at that time, it was Melchizedec so as not to break this law, performed the same duty as priest in collecting his tenth for God.

    4. who is now our Melchizedec?

    Jesus occupied the office of Melchizedec and therefore he is now our high priest.(Heb 7:17)

    5. there is nothing in the scriptures that Jesus collects the tithe?

    the financial of the church is well understood by both the Jews and the Gentiles and never been an issue even in the caiapas trial except the tax of Caesar. Jesus was raised in the custom of the Jews and never want to build his church away from the custom of his fore father.

    if you are convinced that is a tenth a not a tithe then tell me where did he based his calculations of tenth? there must be an origin of everything.

  83. Hi Dave,

    Very interesting comment you posted there but am a bit curious though with regards to a tenth and a tithe. Please what’s the difference between the two?

  84. Very simply, a tithe is a tax that was required under the law where the farm owner and/or the herd owner gave a tenth of his or her increase to the priests residing in the existing temple while being a resident citizen of Yisra’el. This has nothing to do with 2 Corinthians 9:6-7.

    A tenth could apply to anything as it does not mention anything specifically. This can be used to fulfill 2 Corinthians 9:6-7 as well as any other scriptures on generosity.

    If you try to call tithing a fulfillment of 2 Corinthians 9:6-7, you are promoting a manipulative and distorted interpretation of this scripture set. Satan is very efficient at twisting scripture, so why play a part in that by promoting tithing when it can’t be performed by anyone now? The temple no longer exists and cannot be replaced with a house of fellowship. Very few if any actually owns farm land and/or herds to tithe from, but there is no temple to bring them to. Most people are not resident citizens of Yisra’el, so even if they were farm and/or herd owners, they are obligated to tithe.

  85. Now, as for another post you made, you are doing the same manipulative tactics and scripture twisting with “choosing not to obey”. Following the Commandments is accurate within itself, but not when you twist the tithing scriptures to modern day Christian interpretation and then go back to the Commandments. As I have expressed, tithing never existed before the law was in effect. Abrahim never tithed as he gave a tenth of the spoils of war to Malkitsedeq (from the Besorah) and the remaining 90% to the people. Ya’aqob vowed to give a tenth of all he had IF he was returned to his father Yitshaq’s house, which happened decades after he made the vow and I don’t remember seeing that he actually paid. In neither case was this a tithe. If you try to use these as examples, then you have to engage in a war and give a tenth of the spoils to your local church and the other 90% to the people, or you make a vow and in 20 years pay a tenth of whatever you have. Otherwise, you are not consistent with your claim that these were the standards of tithing. Try reading the scriptures without the manipulative interpretation of modern day seminary graduates and stop putting a yoke of bondage on people because the “minister” is too lazy to work for his or her own expenses.

  86. you said: “Abrahim never tithed as he gave a tenth of the spoils of war to Malkitsedeq…”

    listen to me dave Paul wrote about tithe in Heb 7 and it clarified to us that the tenth abraham gave was indeed a tithe and not just a tenth. melchizedec collect his tentth from abraham was a proof that is obligatory. so there is no way that you could claim that is not a tithe. infact not only did abraham who performed the tithing law but also isaac and jacob.

    again if you are convinced that is not a tithe then tell me and to the readers WHERE DID HE BASE HIS CALCULATION OF TENTH? your respond is necessary.

  87. To Willis,

    Everything you are saying is the same rhetoric that has been plaguing the body ever since seminary colleges came into existence. Tithing itself had its purpose and had 3 specific requirements in order to be fulfilled. As for Jesus, which isn’t the actual Name of the Messiah in Ibrit as it is a latin-Greek substitution, wasn’t illustrating that all should tithe because you would have to show the scripture references where he said that someone who did not own farm land or herds had to tithe of their wealth. As for Paul, he wasn’t confirming tithing because in chapter 7, there are a number of places he is speaking against tithing. From verse 11, Paul illustrates the necessity of the elimination of tithing and in verse 18, Paul declares, “For there is indeed a setting aside of the former command because of its weakness and unprofitableness, (19) for the Torah perfected naught, but the bringing in of a better expectation, through which we draw near to Elohim.” This is from the Besorah in the book of Ibrim (Hebrews). As for your comment about tithing being from wages, you show the scripture verses to support your claim because I have not seen any evidence to support this.

    Your assumption that tithing applies to all your increase is, again, a plagued rhetoric promoted by seminary graduates who seek to build earthly kingdoms rather than promote the reign of YAH (this is the actual Name of the Creator). As for the Name of the Messiah, it has been said that Yeshayah is His Name because it actually means savior.

    So in closing, instead of holding on to a dead ideology, try studying the topic with neutrality as I have and you will discover that tithing no longer has a place with anyone at this time. If you are justified by the paying of tithing, then you have abandoned grace. With that being said, if you want to use the tithe percentage as the level of generosity according to 2 Corinthians 9:6-7, that is perfectly acceptable. Just stop promoting bondage and start promoting the truth.

  88. I’m going to post for the last time as it is obvious you have no interest in learning anything other than the imprisoning and burdening seminary dogma that has caused those of the faith in the true Creator to be despised and viewed as financial opportunists. I dare to say that you are probably of a group that uses the house of fellowship as a marketplace just by your promotion of an illegitimate function.

    Tithing had its purpose and place for a time, but it no longer is necessary as it was a tax that was established at the law. Abrahim is the father of Yitshaq, who is the father of Ya’aqob, who is the father of Lewi, who was given the responsibility of sacrifices for atonement. This is part of what the tithe was for. The other part was to compensate the priests for their tasks as they were not permitted to own property. Another part of the tithe was that the poor received the tithe and NEVER paid it as they had no farm land or herds to tithe from. All I can say is you need to read Ibrim (Hebrews) chapter 7 and Shaul (Paul) clearly explains that tithing is no longer necessary.

    If you want to keep promoting a distorted message about tithing, you will be under the greater condemnation for teaching unscriptural messages. Did you know that construction of buildings was never in the plan for witnessing? Just remember the transfiguration of Mosheh and Eliyahu and where Shimon (Petra) declared that he and the others wanted to build tabernacles for Yeshayah, Mosheh and Eliyahu, and YAH spoke from the clouds and said, “Listen to him (Yeshayah).” You follow the same distorted message that has caused the people of faith to be despised. Maybe one day you will learn the truth, but I doubt it.

  89. Dave, I’m in total agreement with you. Wish I had understood this a long time ago. I came across this excellent treatise on tithing last year. If you haven’t seen the URL below, you will find it substantiates everything you’ve argued.

    Willis, you might want to read this PhD dissertation from a Baptist minister.

    http://prayershack.freeservers.com/programs/REK-Tithing3.pdf

    As with the “business” of church, tithing has been wickedly used to browbeat church-goers as a devious way to pay for all those unbiblical temples (built by way of a mortgage) we call churches and the salaries of the unbiblical office of persons we call pastors. I would also encourage everyone to read Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna. They expose all of this.

  90. Just a couple of quick comments. The point that so many miss is that we are aiming far too low. To become all legalistic about teaching, preaching and following a OT 10% tithe is primarily a western church concept and too often creates 10% Christianity. “I’ll give 10% of my $ and live by that same standard in the rest of my Christian life…. 10%.” I find this to fall far shy of the NT expectation of 100%. While the good servant knows to save seed from the harvest to plant for the coming year(s), he must never forget that none of the harvest is ever truly his. This holds true if the master gives him permission to use/invest all of it. As believers, if we truly believe that God is our sole source of supplication, we must also accept that none of what we have is our own but His. All of it!! Oh, that we would choose to live in sacrificial, obediant relationship rather than the bondage of the law! “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.” (Gal 5:1)

  91. fiona rumble

    To the lady whose church was insisting on attendance at midweek meetings and practice and also on legalistic tithing (and everyone who calls themselves a christian) may I offer this comment. Why is your church not helping you? The world will know we are christians by our love- this means looking out for and after each member of the body of Christ. When I see a need like yours, I find out what we can do to help and I ask others to give what they can-perhaps babysitting to give you time to study so that you can give back to your church by participating in the choir if that is what God is calling you to do. I have been in some of the smallest congregations where we would love each other with actions. Why is it that large churches ignore the command of God to look after the widows and children. Jesus was mocking the pharisees when He commented on all that the widow had put in to the offering plate. Jesus gave us His all and expects us to give up our life and our will to follow Him. Forget the word tithe- give a freewill offering of the first ten percent of what God has blessed you with and I guarantee that your attitude will change for the better- God promises that we reap what we sow- if we sow blessing (not legalism) we will reap many more nlessings (doesn’t necessarily mean material riches). Bless You in His name

  92. willis,
    Just a simple yes or no answer will suffice. Did Melchizedec command Abraham to tithe?

  93. willis,
    I’m not responding to yours and russels debate. You’ve stated in previous posts that abraham was obligated to pay tithes to melchizedec, and I’m just trying to have some understanding of your position. If you say yes then where is this command at in the bible. And it needs to be a direct command. I haven’t found one in genesis or Hebrews so I’m curious as to what chapter and verse you are basing this commandment to Abraham on. In the law there is a direct command to tithe but I’m not finding a commandment to Abraham to tithe. If you have the chapter and verse of a commandment to Abraham to tithe please share them, I would like to study the verses more in depth.

  94. willis,
    I not interested in bartering. I’m trying to understand your position so that i can communicate with you a little more clearly. If you can show me the scriptures I’ll seriously pray about my own position and see if it needs readjusting. Isn’t that after all what the body of christ and the word of God are for? To help grow,repent,change and become more like Christ?

  95. Bless you Willis,
    you said:
    ( what we are discussing about the tithe of abraham has already been explained in my previous comments. scroll it back from the start and you will find it almost closed to your nose. )

    That’s exactly the point of my question to you. I did scroll back and read yours, mine and others post in order to understand different views a little better. In the process I found this quote from your answer to my post last month:
    (“further more in Hebrew 7:6 …yet he collected a tenth from Abraham. that is the proof the tithe is obligation”.)

    I studied Hebrews 7:6 and did not find a commandment in that verse or chapter. I did find the word gave
    Hebrews 7:2-4
    2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. 4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
    Heb 7:2-4 (KJV)
    Here is the definition of the word gave as it is used in almost all of the new testament.

    —–a prolonged form of a primary verb (which is used as an alternative in most of the tenses); to give (used in a very wide application, properly or by implication, literal or figurative; greatly modified by the connection) :- adventure, bestow, bring forth, commit, deliver (up), give, grant, hinder, make, minister, number, offer, have power, put, receive, set, shew, smite (+ with the hand), strike (+ with the palm of the hand), suffer, take, utter, yield.
    —Strong’s Greek & Hebrew Dictionary G#1325

    My simple question was and remains where is this commandment at in the bible?

    You said this to me earlier:

    (yes i can show you all of the verses in regards to the Abrahams tithe provided if you can produce me what particular animals were cleaned and uncleaned loaded in the Noahs Ark? deal? you should study it first before we discuss other matters.)

    As far as the clean and unclean animals of Noah’s ark: No one can describe all of them that I’m aware of but, there were at least two particular ones that I can absolutely describe.
    In Genesis 8:7 & 8
    1 The raven was an unclean animal
    2 The dove was a clean animal
    The scripture for the dove and raven being clean and unclean are found in Leviticus Chapter 11 which describes the law of the clean and unclean animals.

    You asked for particular animals
    Here is the definition for particular:
    1: of, relating to, or being a single person or thing
    2 of, relating to, or concerned with details
    3. being one unit or element among others
    4. denoting an individual member or subclass in logic

    I love a challenge and to study the bible Willis, so, I have to thank you for that challenge because it helped me understand the scripture better, because I discovered there are also some spiritual implications to what Noah did, so thanks :)

    I kept my part of the deal:
    Now, where is the commandment from Melchezidec to Abraham about tithing :)

  96. Willis,
    the first rule of scriptural interpretation is that you let scripture interpret scripture. I interpreted scripture properly. you can render my answer void and invalid till you’re blue in the face. If Elohim, God Almighty, Jehovah Himself said the raven was unclean and the dove clean then yours or my opinion doesn’t matter. Let’s cut to the chase. You can’t give me a direct answer because there is no commandment to Abraham. If you want to talk about presumption, you are presuming a commandment to Abraham that doesn’t exist. A commandment that you say does exist. I answered your question in good faith but you keep avoiding mine. Why? I believe it’s because you don’t have an answer. So instead of saying I don’t have an answer you use the tactic of distraction and insults to avoid answering.
    I’ve got bigger fish to fry than wasting my time on childish games. I pray the Lord bless you and give you a revelation of the mercy,grace,love and covenant of the Lord through Jesus Christ. An answer to my original question would be nice but I don’t expect one from you because I can only conclude that you don’t have one. In the future, if you’re going to say that there is a command to do something from God in the scripture, I suggest that you give the scripture to back it up instead of playing games.

  97. I have been tithing for about six years when we first got saved we didn’t cause didn’t seem to ever have the money then we made are self have the money and now its easy to give it because we seem to have it plus more and we never need anything we always have what we need plus more thank you g0d and I think we always just had one excuse after another what is 10% for GOD done for me and mine he has made sure we have had jobs food on are table clothes on are backs and he takes care of my kids and my first grand baby GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME AND ALL THE TIME GOD IS GOOD.

  98. Don’t “tithe” : you can still be saved and blessed

    “Tithe” : be blessed through your demonstration of faith

    I think “tithe” is a word that needs reframing. A “tithe can come in many forms, including time and money. It’s a matter of contribution to His kingdom. Are you contributing or are you sitting on the sidelines?

    • Speaking for myself, I don’t tithe. Nobody can honestly “tithe” because that practice was tied directly to the Levites as the ONLY authorized people to collect it. Besides, the tithe was ONLY crops and livestock. The stark ignorance of the “christian” masses is astounding, to say the least. I wish more people would educate themselves about the tithe rather than remain parrots of the status quo..

  99. Don Dean

    Bob, one other thing about tithing that has bothered me for some years is that, for most (if not all) who do it, that portion (tithe) is the largest and primary portion of their monthly giving handed over to institutional church organizations.

    In most cases, doing so means that the largest portion of those people’s giving is absorbed by facility expenditures, with only the leftovers utilized for meeting the needs of fellow believers and those in the local community. In other words, the largest portion of those people’s giving is used for the support of dead buildings and real estate moreso than meeting the needs of people, such as what we see in the NT account of what was laid at the apostle’s feet.

    Nowhere do we see an example of modern practices in the NT, and yet it’s justified in most people’s minds without question because the giver is reaping direct benefit from their own giving (so-called). How can anyone call that giving when the giver reaps direct benefit from their own “giving”?

    Giving to the beggar on the street corner was true giving because the giver didn’t benefit anything back on this earth apart from what treasure he stored in Heaven.

    Additionally, the OT tithe had nothing whatsoever to do with the monetary wages of wage earners, and yet people of all walks of life continue to draw lines of parallel as if there’s some anchor in the OT texts for what’s being done today. Even Abraham’s tithe has no other parallel in scripture where the percentage of spoils is concerned. Israel never at any time practiced what Abraham did. We have no idea what Jacob ended up doing, where he gave it, who received it, or anything else apart from pure speculation and assumption.

    So, I’m left wondering why so many continue to try and tie modern “tithing” to that of the OT. Our FIRST priority should be as it was in the NT examples of giving. 100% of what they gave went for the meeting of needs, not for communal facilities and lawn care. The NT texts show us God’s priority in giving, and yet modern church organizations teach and practice that which is a complete reversal of God’s exemplified priorities.

    Just some thoughts.

    Don

    • Don Dean

      I hope there can be some healthy discussion on this topic.

    • Don, just wanted to say I totally agree with your comments. As Treasurer for my church for many years, I was not happy how some of the money was spent. We still give to our church but not what my husband & I used to give. We now send it to build churches in Haiti, feed the children, etc. and do so through an organization that I know is top rated for where the funds go. We also give to families in our community. I feel like I’m doing more with God’s money in these ways than giving to the church. Most people would not have a clue exactly how the money is spent even though they see an annual report. It doesn’t give a line by line item cost. Until God shows us differently, we will continue to give monetarily as we are. We do title our time to the church and I do believe it’s more than money we title.

      • Sherri, it’s my hope the Lord continues to bless you as you continue to seek giving to something that benefits others rather than to lavish it back upon yourselves, as is the traditional practice within institutionalized religion. Spiritualizing the robbery of God by handing over to something from which we all benefit isn’t giving at all, it’s paying one’s membership dues. Keep up the GENUINE giving, and may the Lord continue to bless you and yours.

  100. The holy Spirit has been reminding me about tithing. I used to tithe. At this point, I can barely make ends meet, but I feel like giving it all because He’s done so much for me. I used to change the radio station when the hosts starting collecting money for the station, but why shouldn’t I be a part of what has kept me going many days?! Sometimes our bowels of compassion are blocked by our unwillingness to give financially to spread the gospel. When God’s love flows in but not out of our lives, we run the risk of becoming stagnant in our worship through giving.

  101. Nchise Delphine Nchang

    Very interesting comment you posted there but am a bit curious though with regards to a tenth and a tithe. Please is it better to help the needy and the ophans, with then poor or to give a tenth to the church? We cannot justify paying tithes in this new dispensation because Abraham did so! There are many other things that Abraham did that we have decided not to follow because we label them as Old Testament practices. Everything Abraham did, he did before the law: animal sacrifice, circumcision, tithing (a one time event) etc. So we can well argue that animal sacrifice is compulsory for the church today because it had been a standard practice from the beginning. Abel did it, Noah did, Abraham did it, Isaac did it, Jacob did it and the list goes on. They definitely did it before the law was introduced. However, we do seem to forget that our relationship with God in this new dispensation is completely different from the relationship God had with Abraham. Our relationship with God in the new testament is by Grace but in the old testament is by the law.

  102. Hi Bob, outstanding post. I completely agree with all that you said. I usually read all the post before adding my comments but I didn’t want to get into a debate with anyone. My husband and I have tithe in the past and then we stopped tithing for awhile for several reasons that I won’t go into here. Please note that it wasn”t because we weren’t being blessed when we were tithing. These blessings seemed to gradually diminish after we stopped tithing. We are tithing again and I can tell you that it is certainly God’s plan so that He can (and will) open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing so great that you can’t contain it. We are being blessed in amazing ways. Both financially and spiritually. I am not saying that we are rolling in dough. We have debt and my hours at work have been cut twice this year but God continues to provide. He is meeting all our needs and our bill are getting paid. If anyone disagrees, simply do as it says in Malachi, try Him and see.

  103. I just wanted to add that the decision to start tithing again coincided with my first reduction in hours at work. My husband and I were just making our bills when I was working full-time but we decided to trust God and tithe. He provided. Then three months later came the second reduction in my hours. We continued to tithe and He continues to provide. Would we still be saved if we didn’t tithe? Absolutely! But God wants to bless us and stretch our faith. Stepping out in faith and trusting Him by tithing opens the door to blessings that you wouldn’t otherwise see. Now, don’t get it twisted I’m not saying you won’t be blessed if you don’t tithe ( however, you should give something of your substance into the kingdom) but you will experience greater blessings, in this life and the next, if you do.

  104. For me personally, when I started tithing regularly, that is when I started to become more financially blessed, and at the same time I stopped worrying about my bank account. The stress of worrying whether I will have enough money has seemed to completely dissipate permanently, not out of naivete, but out of complete and utter faith. And that is a gift in it of itself. Peace of mind.

    • Don Dean

      Lisha, many people have been blessed whether they hand over to institutionalism a tenth of their wages, or none at all. We’re talking about a Lord who looks upon the heart, not what we do with our wallets.

      Additionally, may I say to you that handing over the primary portion of your monthly giving to an organization from which you personally reap direct benefit isn’t “giving” in the purest sense. When giving to the poor, we reap no earthly benefit from them or anyone else as a result. What we give to them is gone, and the reward is stored up in Heaven. That’s not the case with “church” buildings and their expenditures.

      So, if you want to talk about TRUE “giving”, then we can do that, but calling a spade a club does tend to stretch the truth beyond the bounds of….well, Truth.

  105. Gary Sellars

    So, is it love that preachers lie and deceive people by brainwashing them with the “law of the tithe,” putting people under condemnation and guilt, hindering their confidence in the Lord, all for the benefit of enriching themselves.

    Are you really ignorant of God’s condemnation of this behavior in both the old and new covenants?

    Of course you are, because you have been brainwashed also.

    Remember what brainwashing is. It’s repeating the same thing over and over and over and over and its effect is to change the belief of the one listening AGAINST LOGIC, REASON AND TRUTH.

    Is it love to NEVER allow an open discussion in any church on tithing?

    Is it love to harp on tithing incessantly and dishonestly and NEVER tell people that the tithe was to provide for the Levites and therefore ALL the Jewish Believers in Jesus, CONTINUED TO TITHE to the Levites?

    Is it love to understand and know these things and knowing and understanding the purpose of the tithe IS the reason NO JEW EVER EVEN SUGGESTED that Gentiles tithe?

    Is it love to read Galatians 5 and understand that “Christ will profit you nothing” is extremely stern words to give someone for doing something that they’ve been told is “commanded” by God when God has NOT COMMANDED it of New Testament Believers, and thus put them in a position, along with THE REST OF THE CHURCH by yoking them with THE LAW?

    I could go on an on and on with things that the preachers have SEEN IN SCRIPTURE AND IGNORED because of the love of money and their REFUSAL to see and believe Jesus’ warning that men CANNOT love God AND mammon.

    Your self-righteous copying and pasting of 1 Cor 13 reveals your own brainwashing and your lack of the love of what God’s Word ACTUALLY SAYS.

    But, hey, it’s your forum and if you don’t want to be honest, you have that liberty.

    • Don Dean

      Gary, I agree that tithing is a thing of the OT past, and that it never had anything to do with the wages of wage earners like most of us here. Many others don’t know that because they’ve never studied their Bibles closely enough to begin breaking away from all the false teachers they’ve heard over the years of their lives….

      ….but there’s a better way to get your message out to people without resorting to ad hominem tactics. You’re turning more people away from you than those who will stand and listen. Your testimony is rendered meaningless when you become the one lopping off the ears of your detractors. Your message lacks love and compassion for those stuck in the webs of lies.

      Perhaps you will one day learn to travel the higher road…..or not. It’s up to you.

      Don

  106. John Wesley opposed tithing.

    He was even opposed to the idea that 10% was a “good starting point” for Christian giving, as he was opposed to using ANY numeric formula to determine giving.

    Your quoting of Wesley gives the impression that he would have supported your position on tithing. He would not have, and it is improper for you to give people that impression (even inadertantly).

    You should either remove the Wesley quote, or add a note to it explaining that Wesley opposed tithing.

  107. Part of my upbringing was to believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. With this in mind, I have at times in my life felt blessed on and off, no matter whether I was tithing or not. I can honestly say that in my life, I have been more richly blessed when I have consistently given back with a cheerful heart. This did not always mean money in the bank, but things always seemed to work out.

    I also do not qualify for low income because my salary is too high yet I have struggled over the years to get beyond living paycheck to paycheck. With that said, I made a push to go back to school a year and half ago and ended being approved for a board of governors fee waiver that paid all my tuition and fees the entire year and a half! Not only did this happen, but I “made money” going to school. One caveat to this is I felt like God was calling me to go back to school, so if that’s the case, then of course its going to work out…I just don’t think it would have worked out so well if I had not been faithfully giving to further His kingdom.

    Lastly, I also started to keep track of my daily blessings when I was tithing and when I was not. I still had blessings coming in even though I was not tithing, but it was nowhere near the amount or consistency of seeing the blessings when giving. Just food for thought for others reading this.

    • Don Dean

      James, the sense of accomplishment and blessing when doing what others expect of us is indeed a strong, human tendency. It’s part of our makeup because we want to belong.

      It’s always easier to fall into lock-step with others around us than to walk that seemingly lonely road of obedience to the Lord. The power of suggestions hammered out each week from pulpits is enough to sometimes make us see what really isn’t there.

      It’s a known fact that giving has an effect upon the human psyche. We see things differently, which includes lack. When I’ve looked upon the poor in Africa, living in grass huts while having to hunt each day for their meals, there was also joy and happiness. They still smiled and played at times. They didn’t even know they were poor in relation to the financially wealthy in the world. Poverty was simply the state within which they sought and found joy. It wasn’t a joy of being impoverished. They simply didn’t realize their poverty. They didn’t let it get them down.

      We, by that same reasoning, when we do what economically seems orrational, will make subconscious adjustments in our other spending habbits, which will compensate for what we gave elsewhere, and therefore seem like greater blessing from God. Sometimes it is God, sometimes not.

      However, the all too common tendency toward thinking that a disregard for practicing proper priorities in our giving will somehow escape God’s notice on Judgement Day is indeed a horrible reality among so many who claim to love God and His word. Those who think that handing over to institutional church organizations the primary, largest portion of their giving will somehow store up treasure in Heaven are in for a rude awakening! Many people have great “blessing” on this earth who live disobediently, and they will assume that the material blessings they are reaping is from God in spite of their disobedience to His word.

      The Lord clearly expects us to FIRST see to the needs of people BEFORE the needs of dead buildings and professional hirelings with theological cemetary degrees hanging in their offices. Anyone can claim to be “called to the ministry”, and yet the acid test for that clearly shows that they are nothing but pawns to the status quo! When they fil to teach God’s priorities in giving, they disqualify themselves from being TRUE servants in ministry of and to the Most High God and His people. They are liars and thieves!

      Does that seem harsh an unloving? Look at what the Lord called the religious leaders 2000 years ago….

      Don

  108. Wilfred Khalik

    Guys tithing is a matter of the heart.If you are convicted by God’s word that you should tithe so as to help his Kingdom on Earth and then by all means do so.

    I f you are not convicted then God bless you too.Please read Romans 14 – it has so much wisdom regarding not only food or drink by also anything that acts as a stumbling block for us believers.I especially like Romans 14:23 “… for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”

    If you think and are convicted that tithing is good then by all means tithe – if you not convicted that do not do so…But please whatever you choose – do so in faith and do not make it a “stumbling block” for other believers.

    Having said what I have above – please pray and ask for the Holy Spirit to guide on the above.

  109. Wilfred Khalik

    Having read other comments I would like say that what harm is there in tithing – It will help in advancing the Kingdom of God on Earth!

    Luke 12:34
    For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

    I believe that you will tithe because you want to lay treasures for yourself in heaven.I would seriously have a look at my heart attitude if I was opposed to tithing.

  110. Sandy Moore

    Can our tithe go to the needs of others, if God puts in our path a person that needs help, can we use our tithe on that person? After all the Church is the believers in Christ, not a building….

  111. Comments are now closed…

    ” If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. “ -1 cor 13

  112. Don Dean

    Amen, Bob.

    Love says to us that we must equip ourselves with the knowledge of the TRUTH of scripture.

    When speaking of a Lord who looks upon the heart, and then turn right around and declare to the world that same Lord blessed me because of what I do with my wallet….that speaks of a vastly inferior understanding of God and His written word to us. That same Lord owns cattle on a thousand hills.

    To my knowledge, nobody has rustled those cattle from Him, and so claiming that we’re blessed because we hand over a tenth or more to institutionalized religion and its money-hungry coffers says very little about the heart of the individual, and is certainly nothing for which to brag. After all, when we hand over a portion of our wages to “church” organizations, and at the same time reap direct benefit from that same giving, then it really isn’t “giving” in the biblical sense.

    I’ve seen faithful tithers lose everything they have, and I’ve seen non-tithers reap all manner of monetary and material blessing, so what should our testimony be in this regard?

    Simply stated, our testimony should be, first and foremost, about the Lord and His goodness toward all….even those who don’t “purchase” His blessing through obedience to what the Bible clearly does not teach. This fixation so many people have upon “me, me, me, me, you, me, me, me….,” is astoundingly prideful. Assuming the Lord has blessed me as a result of my actions rather than what’s in my heart is presumption of a violent takeover of the very Throne of God, because the words of that same Lord say otherwise.

    When I anonymously give to that family down the street whose husband and father was laid off from his job, I have given unto the Lord. When I replace the bad shingles on the widow’s home across town, I have given to the Lord. When I give, in the name of the Lord, soda drinks to the kids playing in the park on a hot day, I have given to the Lord. When I watch over the children of that single mom who needs some alone time, I have given to the Lord.

    Handing over support to something from which I reap direct benefit by way of the many conforts offered by the luxuries of communal facilities with heat and air conditioning, cushioned seats, clean bathrooms, library space, edification from teaching and other activities, etc,. etc., that is paying one’s dues, not necessarily “Giving to the Lord.”

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